REFERRALS – TAP INTO THE POWER OF ADDRESS BOOKS

Tips on how to tap into the power of address books by Jay Gibb

  • Our tool lets people select people from an address book without having to leave the website.
  • 5-7% of people who choose to use their address book will generally produce 50% of the referrals that actually get sent. 
  • We've got a bunch of content on our website around those incentives and how to choose them and how to test them.
  • So, the most important thing, I think, is to be very careful with what you do with the email addresses that you're being given.
  • Send the email, do what your user is asking you to do, and then obliterate all memory of that email address.
  • As soon as people started buying CloudSponge, I wish I had started doing case studies on them.

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REFERRALS – TAP INTO THE POWER OF ADDRESS BOOKS

[just click to tweet]

REFERRALS – TAP INTO THE POWER OF ADDRESS BOOKS

Our tool lets people select people from an address book without having to leave the website.

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Doug Morneau: Well, welcome back listeners to another episode of Real Marketing Real Fast. Today we're gonna talk about technology and marketing. We're gonna talk about how to engage with your users, contacts, and generate more leads, referrals, and virality or viral referral programs. Our guest today is an expert in this space. Their company works with some of the bigger names, some that you may recognize like Airbnb, Stitch, Hired, as well as GoFundMe and Nextdoor. So I'd like to welcome Jay Gibb.

Jay is the founder and CEO of Cloudspace, which is a B2B SaaS company, and he is also a partner at a distributed software engineering consulting agency called Arizona Bay. He and his team have built hundreds of online businesses with entrepreneurs over the last 20 years and he's an expert at helping nontechnical and quasi-technical entrepreneurs build new software products and management technologies and teams for their ventures. He's also a dad of three young kids and he's gonna share a little bit with us near the end on how he manages to balance, stay focused, run his companies, service his clients, but also make sure that he's got a good time to spend with his kids. So if you're interested in using technology to leverage your business and generate more referrals and get people into your database, I would suggest listening in and I would like welcome Jay to the Real Marketing Real Fast Podcast today.

So welcome to the Real Marketing Podcast, Jay. I’m super excited to be talking to you today.

Jay Gibb: Hey Doug, how ya doing?

Doug Morneau: Good. So it's interesting looking and talking a little bit before we got on air about work/life balance, but we're gonna talk about some business and marketing stuff as well. So why don't you just give us a little bit of background in terms of the venture that you're running and how you got that started and manage to run a new entrepreneurial venture and still look after your family?

Jay Gibb: Sure, yeah. So, CloudSponge is a company that's been, we started in 2010, 3 years I guess before I had my first kid. So we got started when it was just my wife and I. It was a little bit easier back then. And the way that that company got started was actually a byproduct of some other work, so we were building some software and one of the features that we needed for the software we were building was the ability to import address books. So we were building integrations with places where people typically store their address books. Gmail and Hotmail, Windows Live, AOL, Yahoo, etc. And as we were doing that, we saw like just a ton of people in places like Stack Overflow and used other development forms like Google Developer Forms and things like that, who were all also building very similar software. And we'd see people in Google Forms and then also in Yahoo Forms and stuff. We'd see the same people and so we realized that this thing we were building probably had a market. And if we, rather than just building it for ourselves, if we tried to turn it into a product like a software as a service tool that people could subscribe to, that they would probably buy it from us rather than having to build it themselves.

Eight years later, that's absolutely been proven to be true and we're still in the business right now of being the industry leader as a single point of integration for the world's address books.

Doug Morneau: Well, that's really cool. And I mean you've obviously got some really nice logos on your website, all of which I recognize and I've used a few of them, like Airbnb, myself. So in terms of your technology, I got super excited. When I started looking at what you guys were doing, I went holy smokes, is that ever cool at addresses and I immediately related to the referral program. It addresses the I have to remember six people's names and email addresses and type them in and what a nuisance that is and why I never go past one or two because I can't remember them and I can't access my phone book.

Jay Gibb: Yeah, I mean it's something that I think most people who use the Internet, which is all of us, have seen at some point. Everybody's seen please enter a comma-separated list of your friends' email addresses, right?

Doug Morneau: Like we all keep those just stored on our desktop, right?

Jay Gibb: Right, yeah. And there's like a really fundamental user input friction problem there, where people don't have them memorized, they're making type mistakes. As a website owner, the last thing you want is to send somebody to a different window or a different tab to go copy and search and copy and paste and log in somewhere and expect them to come back and make them manually construct a list of email addresses. And so it's something that once companies who have an interface like that discover how easy it is to just add from your address book link right beside one of those fields, generally they get up and running with CloudSponge in about an hour and they can multiply the performance of a form like that by 2 or 3x with very little effort.

Doug Morneau: Now you also shared too, is in this particular case, you guys aren't the referral software program, but you give people the ability to easily input. So I can go to my favorite program and it says, they add your contacts. I click Google and I can download all my contacts from Google into the referral program and hit send. Is that right?

Jay Gibb: Yeah, so our product is a JavaScript widget and so you can sort of choose the place, your user can choose where they have their address book. They pick one of the logos that we're integrated with and then once they've authenticated and given you permission to read their contracts, then our widget displays their contacts in an alphabetical list. And if they're on mobile, it's got the little tappable alphabet along the right margin that you see with other software.

Doug Morneau: Yep.

Jay Gibb: And they can search and sort and scroll and select the people that they want to share with your site. And then when they exit the widget, we send those into the form field. Or if your interface is asking the user to create a recipient list for something like an e-card or an event invitation or a fundraising campaign, then there are lots of different ways that you can integrate with our widget to get the data in different ways. So you can either have it stuffed into a text area or you can have it posted to a webhook on your server. Or you can use JavaScript to loop through it and do something dynamic with it if you want to. So we have lots of different ways to integrate for people that have different use cases. Because like I said, we've been doing this for about ten years now and we've pretty much covered all the different ways that people want to integrate with a product like this.

Doug Morneau: So do you want to share with us one of your clients that had a major breakthrough or success using your technology, where they're able to like you said to reduce the friction and obviously amp or ramp up the number of referrals they got?

Jay Gibb: Yeah, so we've got a whole bunch of case studies on our website for people that can sort of self-select with companies that they relate to. But the general anecdote or the thing that we hear most often, especially with the referral program use case, is that only 5-7% of the people that see an interface like this are gonna choose to connect their address book. So still the vast majority of people will still type an email address or go through the friction process. But that 5-7% of people who choose to use their address book will generally produce 50% of the referrals that actually get sent.

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REFERRALS – TAP INTO THE POWER OF ADDRESS BOOKS

[just click to tweet]

REFERRALS – TAP INTO THE POWER OF ADDRESS BOOKS

Our tool lets people select people from an address book without having to leave the website.

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Doug Morneau: Wow, that's a crazy number.

Jay Gibb: Yeah, it is crazy and we've heard similar numbers. You know, it's a range. It's like 40-60 and 5-7, just because we've heard it from lots of different companies. And now it's something that once we have a customer that using it for this and we have a good relationship with them, we're doing some integration help and support and stuff, I'll ask them, they do you mind if I come back in three months and can we talk about these two numbers? I’m gonna ask you three months from now what percentage of people who send at least one referral to use the address book function and out of everybody who does send a referral, how many of them came from somebody who used the address book function, right? So the sandwich basically, the bread on the CloudSponge sandwich let's call it.

Doug Morneau: Yep.

Jay Gibb: Before and after our product is being used, and that's the number, man. It's pretty amazing that it's so effective to just let people select people from an address book without having to leave the website.

Doug Morneau: And I guess that some of that will depend too on how much people love the brand. I mean, if I like your brand, if I’m lukewarm, I’m likely to type in one or two addresses. But if I love, love, love your product or your brand or your service, I want everybody that I can share it with to see it and experience it.

Jay Gibb: Yeah, that's definitely a big part of it and also the incentives are…depending if you're B2C if your e-commerce is going to be different from a marketplace and things. But we've got a bunch of content on our website around those incentives and how to choose them and how to test them. And the incentives are different for a B2B environment than they are for a B2C environment. And sometimes you'll find that giving the recipient of a referral an incentive works better than giving the sender of the referral the incentive, right? So there's a few different things there that matter as well in terms of getting somebody really motivated to use a referral program. So those are things that we get to see what our customers are doing and learn from that. But those aren't things that we're actually…we're not participating in that part of the program. We're just dealing with the address book integrations.

Doug Morneau: So do you…I mean obviously, you've been doing this for quite a while, as you said since 2010. Where's the low-hanging fruit? Where do you think…because you guys are the leaders in the industry, where do you think there are business opportunities that just aren't leveraging your technology, could have massive growth?

Jay Gibb: I think the…we've obviously been talking about the referral program area already. That's anybody who got a referral program that's sort of forcing people to type these email addresses. There's a massive opportunity for them to try this. And then the other one is for those long recipient lists. For places, as I said like for event invitations, e-cards, fundraising. Do we have tons and tons companies using us for their fundraising promotion interfaces, where without a product like ours, you're forcing your user to go to Excel or Google Sheets and create a spreadsheet, right? And then you're teaching them how to export that or save it as a CSV file and then how to upload it to your website. And then we're dealing with customer support to help people that make mistakes there. So there's some massive opportunity for companies that are going through that process right now to save money on customer support and to make a lot more people get through that process a lot more smoothly.

Doug Morneau: Now with the change in kind of the mood, if you will in the marketplace around privacy, what else do people need to consider or companies need to consider if they're looking at implementing a strategy like this?

Jay Gibb: So, the most important thing, I think, is to be very careful with what you do with the email addresses that you're being given. In the past when things were a little bit looser, companies would sort of create like a ghost account for these people that were referred. And so they would store that email address in their database and they would sort of…LinkedIn famously continued to email those people when they shouldn't have. And so you have to remember that these email addresses that you've received from your user weren't given to you by the data subject. They weren't given to you by the person who actually owns that email address.

Doug Morneau: Right.

Jay Gibb: And so you need to behave in a way where you're an agent of your user. You're performing a function that they're asking you to perform. In other words, I want you to email my friend please and you do that once. You do it only when that user is present on your website. You don't do it after they're offline after their session is over. Do it just like…treat it the same way as if that person was sending their friend an email through a normal email client.

Doug Morneau: Sure.

Jay Gibb: Right?

Doug Morneau: Yep.

Jay Gibb: Send the email, do what your user is asking you to do, and then obliterate all memory of that email address. Don't keep it in your database. Don't continue to email that person. Don't be creepy basically. Just do what your user asked you to do and then move on. And I think as a general principle, if you sort of follows that high-level rule, you'll be okay.

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REFERRALS – TAP INTO THE POWER OF ADDRESS BOOKS

[just click to tweet]

REFERRALS – TAP INTO THE POWER OF ADDRESS BOOKS

Our tool lets people select people from an address book without having to leave the website.

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Doug Morneau: Yeah, I mean that makes sense. I get the temptation of people going hey, look at all this new data. But you're clearly gonna be offside and risk not only running against what the rules are and the law but damaging your brand and toasting your ESP at the same time.

Jay Gibb: Yep.

Doug Morneau: So when you guys got started in this like you said you were building software in a different area and then you transitioned to this. And you said something that I thought was really interesting when we first started speaking and you said, this is an example of niching down. And you hear people over and over and over say niche down, niche down, and then you hear the pushback. And sometimes I think that way myself. It's like yeah but I’m gonna miss some people. So do you want to kind of share how you guys worked through that idea that hey, I’m gonna niche down and this is where we're gonna make our success?

Jay Gibb: Yeah, sure. I mean I'd like to be able to tell you that I was clairvoyant and I knew exactly what I was doing the whole time. But that's just not true. The truth is it was primarily because of budget constraints because we couldn't solve all the problems in the world that we had and we had to basically pick a focus, right?

Doug Morneau: Sure.

Jay Gibb: But even to this day, I still get pulled in the direction of building more, right? Building more than just address book integrations. Because in order for our customers to make use of CloudSponge, they still have to bring quite a bit to the table, right? They've gotta bring their own email sending functionality. They've gotta bring their own incentives. They have to bring their own database and all that kinda thing. And so we get opportunities. We have customers or prospects who come to us all the time and they say “yeah, couldn't you do this?” Or “can you do this?”  It would be easier for me to use your product if it did the following things and we just always just say no. We've always just said, “no, I’m sorry.” Like this is our focus, we want to be the best in the world at the thing that we're doing, and we don't want to dilute our product by trying to do too much or do things that are only useful for a small group.

Doug Morneau: Yep.

Jay Gibb: And that's what I mean by niching down, right? We're a very specific thing that we do and if we did more than what we currently do, then we wouldn't have been interesting to Airbnb and GoFundMe and Yelp and Nextdoor and all these great companies that use us. The reason why big companies like that who have large engineering workforces that could do anything, the reason why they choose to use our product is that we stay in our lane. We do what we do well and we're not trying to do the other stuff.

Doug Morneau: Yeah.

Jay Gibb: And those companies that I just listed, they all use us for something's that very different from one another, right? Their use cases for our product are totally unique for their businesses. And if we weren't niched down into just this one specific feature, then we wouldn't be a fit for anybody, if that makes sense.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, often I've seen people where they start expanding their business model or their audience and then they realize that like you said they're not in their own lane. They're now in the lane of one of their customers, so the question then is how long are they going to remain a customer if the primary supplier is now a competitor.

Jay Gibb: Right, yep.

Doug Morneau: So looking at technology and where it's going today and I know none of us has a crystal ball, but where do you see opportunities and what are you most excited about in the next 6 to 12 months, whether it's with this program that you guys are working with or with your business or-

Jay Gibb: Good question. I haven't thought about that too much as far as what I’m excited about. I guess in my world as far as some of the stuff that we're doing, I don't know if this is all that new, but I like how there's software out there now that makes it really easy to put your face in an email in the video. So things like Wistia's Soapbox for example-

Doug Morneau: Yep.

Jay Gibb: And other software out there that allows you to really, really easily close the gap between creating a video and emailing it to somebody for marketing or for sales. We've started using that in a way that is working very well, where we can just say…and this is all about like personalized outreach and all these topics you hear about with cold outbound tactics. But being able to just rather than writing somebody an email, being able to just put your face on a video and say, hey I got this thing and you've got this problem and I think that we should be talking about this. Like let me know what you think and actually having it be something that people engage with. I think we're going to see more and more of that and hopefully, it doesn't get spoiled. But it does feel to me like something that's not currently used enough and we will most likely see more and more of those salespeople and marketing people creating videos that only have an audience of one. Like this video's just for you and only for you.

Doug Morneau: Yep.

Jay Gibb: Kind of thing, right?

Doug Morneau: Yeah, I've received a few of those and I always think it's really cool when somebody does that. But to your point of I hope it doesn't get spoiled, I think back of listening to Gary Vaynerchuk talk about tactics. And he goes yep, he said everything works. Then, the marketers come along, he says, and they destroy it. So I guess that's just the way it goes. The herd shows up and then people will look for ways to go around that and try to leverage it probably in the wrong ways. But yeah, I agree with you. I love to see the face to face and now the ability to quickly hop on a call or a Zoom call or a demo and just be live talking to people because we're not always in front of them face to face.

Jay Gibb: Yep.

Doug Morneau: So in terms of your business, looking back when you got started and thinking of entrepreneurs and business owners that are listening today, what's one thing that you'd change or some advice that you would give yourself today?

Jay Gibb: You know what I wish I had done differently? As soon as people started buying CloudSponge, I wish I had started doing case studies on them. We didn't actually start like unpacking the before, during, after experiences of our customers for several years after getting started. And it's something that we could have done when we had our first five customers. I could've reached out to those five people and said hey, I want to tell the story of why you're using this product and how you're getting value out of it and why you decided to search for this product in the first place. And I think we would be way further along in our business if I had the discipline and the idea I guess to have done that from the very beginning.

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REFERRALS – TAP INTO THE POWER OF ADDRESS BOOKS

[just click to tweet]

REFERRALS – TAP INTO THE POWER OF ADDRESS BOOKS

Our tool lets people select people from an address book without having to leave the website.

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Doug Morneau: That's interesting. I got an email from a technology company today that I was on a call with yesterday and they do some work in the space that I do, lots of work in the email space. And that's exactly why they're reaching out. They were hey, we're a startup. We're just launching version two. We see that you do lots of stuff in the space. We bought your book, read your book. We like what you're doing. Would you consider coming on, using our technology, and being a case study? So I thought wow, that was super niche. Because how many people can you contact on LinkedIn, a zillion, but to get down and start having one-on-one conversations as you're rolling it out and get early feedback.

Jay Gibb: Yeah, I mean for me, it's the seed that all of our content now blossoms from. And I don't mean like blog post content, although that's also included. But also like landing page copy and documentation, FAQs. Basically, every piece of content that's on our website is now somehow inspired by those case studies. So anybody out there who's out there who's like, like your listeners who aren't sure what they should be writing about on their blog or what their homepage should probably say, case studies are a really great place to start. Because you're gonna get the vocabulary, the problems, the anxieties, like all these things from people who are actually paying you and then you can kinda just print that out, go through with a highlighter, and it'll give you a million ideas for things that you should probably have on your homepage or things that you should probably be writing about on your blog, right? Which is I think a problem that a lot of people struggle with, where they're just guessing about their content strategy and I think something like case studies really brings it all into focus and makes it really easy to understand exactly what you should be writing about.

Doug Morneau: Well, that's interesting. You're the first person that I've ever talked to who suggested creating a copy off of case studies to make sure you speak the customer's language.

Jay Gibb: Yeah, I mean case studies…if you can't get case studies, reviews and like if you got people leaving reviews on Yelp or G2 Crowd or something like that. You can just go into those places and see like what are the words that they use to describe the problem that they have. What are the words that they use to describe my solution and maybe I should change my words, right? Like this is…obviously there are more people like this, so maybe I should use their vocabulary instead of the one that I think makes sense, right?

Doug Morneau: So there you go listeners. There's a tip for you. Be mindful of the vocabulary that your customers are using. We had a meeting with a VP of a company we were doing some work for. We were doing some online advertising for them and we basically brought a list of the highest converting terms that we were getting using Google. And the VP…we ended up having this discussion where he just said I don't agree with you. What do you mean you don't agree? Well, he says, my users, the people who hire us aren't that sophisticated. Well, we're not debating how sophisticated they are. These are the terms that they're typing into the search engines and they're coming to your website. And they absolutely refused to use them in their copy. Because he didn't believe his users knew those words. It's like well they're using them, this is Google's data, not mine, so-

Jay Gibb: Wow.

Doug Morneau: That's good feedback. It's funny when you mention though, you talked about content strategy, you brought that up. You probably haven't heard the episode yet, but I just interviewed a guy close to you…well, you in California, I guess right?

Jay Gibb: Yep.

Doug Morneau: He was also in the Los Angeles area, or in California, Brendan Kane. And he talked about exactly that, where they would run ads to determine the language that people respond to and then take that intel and then use that for their content strategy.

Jay Gibb: Yeah, I think Tim Ferriss famously did something similar to choose the subtitles of his books as well.

Doug Morneau: Well, and there's often people talk about even using things like Amazon. Go into your topic of expertise, go in and find the books, and then look at the conversations that people are having and be able to pick up and glean the language for your particular space and topic.

Jay Gibb: Yep.

Doug Morneau: So what's some of the bad advice that you hear out in the marketplace in terms of kind of your space and what you're doing? There's always good advice. So you mentioned Tim Ferriss, so that's a question I stole from one of his most recent books is what's the bad advice you hear?

Jay Gibb: What's the bad advice? I still see a shocking number of discussions like in entrepreneurial groups and stuff sharing tips and tricks for mass emailing people. Like how do I find, like buy lists of email addresses? Or how do I email a whole bunch of people, like hundreds of people per day? What's the best template and subject for an outbound cold campaign that's gonna go to 10,000 people a week and things like that. And it just blows my mind that that conversation is still happening. None of that works. I don't get it. I don't get why people are still talking about it.

Doug Morneau: Yeah.

Jay Gibb: And yet they do daily. Every day I see it and I just shake my head every time. So if your listeners are looking at those tools and trying to find ways to scale cold outreach without like personalizing every message manually, then they should just stop. Because it's just a big waste of time.

Doug Morneau: Well, you can't personalize them, but as you said, you've got into a relationship. But I’m laughing because I look at all the alerts that come up from Quora asking me those questions because I sometimes respond to the email questions in Quora. And you're right, it's like where can I get a list of…I think last nights was where can I get a list of IT managers in Africa? It's like I’m not even going to respond. But the data are out there. Yeah, we've always subscribed to the permission side works better. So it's like your system has a referral. If I partner with a big brand or a Washington Post or somebody like that and they send my message to their subscribers, there's the relationship. But if I had to buy the list cold, I’m gonna have a whole bunch of problems in terms of responsiveness and probably complaints and damage to my company reputation.

Jay Gibb: Yep, absolutely.

Doug Morneau: So what events do you typically attend?

Jay Gibb: Well, I am a father of three very young children, two, three, and five, so I don't right now. I don't. Every now and again, I'll get out for something that's critically important and usually, it's a local, like a local meetup or I really enjoy startup weekends. And so when I can be a volunteer at a startup weekend, be a mentor at one of those events, then I try my best to sign up with those things.

Doug Morneau: Yep.

Jay Gibb: But I’m definitely in the phase of my life where that is not something that I’m prioritizing. I may get back into it in three years when my youngest one is in grade school, but for now, if it's not the middle of a weekday, then I’m at home with my kids, not thinking about work.

Doug Morneau: Yep, no okay. Yeah, I get that. I can totally relate. So you did share a tip that you use to maintain your work/life balance. Do you want to share that with our listeners in terms of how you stay focused during the day to get your work done?

Jay Gibb: Yeah, right now I do that by renting an office at a co-working space. It's nice. Co-working spaces are nice because you don't have to sign a three-year lease like it's not a big commitment. It's usually month to month or maybe two months in advance notice or something like that. And so it is temporary. It's something that when my life changes again when the kids get a little older, I can abandon it spontaneously. But right now, I work here and when I’m not here and I go home, my laptop stays in my backpack until I leave for work the next day. So I don't open my laptop at home unless there's some kind of emergency but generally doesn't happen. And when I’m here in my office, I just work and that's all I do. And I try to make sure to keep regular hours that the kids can depend on, so leave the house around the same time every day and come home around the same time every day. And for me, that's been working.

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REFERRALS – TAP INTO THE POWER OF ADDRESS BOOKS

[just click to tweet]

REFERRALS – TAP INTO THE POWER OF ADDRESS BOOKS

Our tool lets people select people from an address book without having to leave the website.

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Doug Morneau: And I would guess that it helps keep you focused. When I used to do that as well, when the kids were younger, I found that I focused because I knew I had like four hours or five hour period to get whatever done I needed to get done. And if you're working home-based, you know you're gonna be there all day. So I think work expands to the time.

Jay Gibb: Yep, absolutely.

Doug Morneau: Well, that's really cool. So hey, I just want to say thanks so much for taking the time to share with us today a bit about what you guys are doing and a bit about your tool. Now, where is the best place for people to find you and reach out if they want to connect with you and learn more about what you're doing?

Jay Gibb: The best place to learn about CloudSponge is just on CloudSponge.com. And you can reach out to me there, just click on the little chat bubble and I'll get it. Or you can find me on LinkedIn. I've been spending more time on LinkedIn lately, so you can just search for my name on LinkedIn and connect with me there.

Doug Morneau: Well, I wasn't sure if that was really you. I was on your website before this episode we started recording and I was just reading through your blog and I got this little popup and it went Jay Gibb. And I’m thinking I wonder if that's really Jay, so I don't want to creep him out and say I’m gonna be interviewing you in an hour or so, so I didn't click on the bubble, but it did pop up.

Jay Gibb: Yeah, so we all…everybody in the company sees all of the support conversations. We pipe them all into a Slack channel.

Doug Morneau: Yeah.

Jay Gibb: And so I am responsible for delegating those to the appropriate party that knows the answer to whatever being asked and I do see everything. I can't promise that I’m gonna be the guy that replies to you with your first reply. But if somebody sees that you've asked for me, like whoever's on duty will just assign that conversation to me and we'll go from there.

Doug Morneau: That's cool. Well, I will send you a note there because that says if I’m an agency or a platform, I need to contact you. So I will when we're off air reach out and will do that.

Jay Gibb: Sweet.

Doug Morneau: So Jay, who's one guest I absolutely have to have on my podcast?

Jay Gibb: So I’m not sure if he's already been on the podcast, I haven't looked through all your episodes. But there's this copywriter up in Canada. His name is Joel Klettke.

Doug Morneau: Yep.

Jay Gibb: K-L-E-T-T-K-E, I think. Klettke. And it's just kind of going back to the suggestion I made earlier about case studies. He's got this…he's niched down into this universe of copywriting for case studies. He's got this product called Case Study Buddy and the guy is just outstanding. I think your listeners would learn a lot from him and from his advice on copywriting in general. And he'd be able to unpack the power of a case study probably a lot better than I can.

Doug Morneau: Well, there you go. So there's a place we can go learn and then if we want to see it in action, we can take a look at your website and see what a good job you've done in getting that set up for yourself.

Jay Gibb: Yep.

Doug Morneau: Well, awesome. Appreciate the referral. And if you've got his information close by and wouldn't mind, just pop him an email and make an introduction and I'll make sure I follow with him.

Jay Gibb: Cool. Yeah, I will.

Doug Morneau: So thanks so much again, Jay, for sharing. So listeners, as usual, make sure we transcribe all the notes. I know Jay's got a couple of Twitter accounts as well, but he said he's on LinkedIn, so don't be shy. If you're gonna reach out to him, my suggestion on LinkedIn is don't just send a cold contact. Tell him where you heard about his company and if you're gonna ask to connect. So that's a wrap for this episode. I look forward to serving you on our next episode. Thanks so much for tuning in.

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LEARN HOW TO PROSPECT AND SELL FROM THIS SALES EXPERT

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