Step into the fast-paced world of ‘Real Marketing Real Fast’ with me, Doug Morneau. Each episode is a power-packed journey through the twists and turns of digital marketing and website acquisition. Expect unfiltered insights, expert interviews, and a healthy dose of sarcasm. This isn’t just another marketing podcast; it’s your front-row seat to the strategies shaping the digital landscape.


Tips on how to attract a steady flow of ideal clients with Dov Gordon

  • We call ourselves the Alchemist Entrepreneur precisely because we get below the surface to … We’re not skidding across the surface.
  • We can skid across the surface of our understanding, or we can strike at the root where the masses are hacking at the leaves. We can build on the underlying structure of a situation.
  • We eventually get to simplicity on the far side of complexity.
  • The only three questions in the mind of the ideal client is should I pay attention? Is it interesting? When you’ve got me interested, can I trust you? And is what you recommend right for me?
  • Instead of just being overwhelmed with ideas, you realize, okay, what is one thing I can do for each of these [questions above] and that’s what I’m all about.
  • All we’re ever thinking about is a problem that we have and don’t want and/or a result we want and don’t have. Be clear as to who’s the ideal client? What’s the problem they have? Speak that aloud in a way that is clear, and usually clearer than they are thinking it themselves.
  • What gets me excited is the things that don’t change, timeless principles. Mastery. Master your craft. We’ve got to master and more deeply understand things we already know rather than go off and look for more information.

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The only three questions in the mind of the ideal clients are is it interesting? Can I trust you? And, is what you recommend right for me?

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Doug: Well, welcome back, listeners, to another episode of Real Marketing Real Fast. Today, I think you’re going to enjoy the conversation. Our guest today in studio is Dov Gordon. He shared a lot of valuable information. I’m just going to give you just a snippet, an insight on a couple of things he’s going to cover in terms of messaging to see if we’re going in the right direction attracting clients.

He said that basically, people, there are two issues that people are dealing with. They have a problem that they don’t want and they’re looking for a result that we want and they don’t have. Dov has been in business for a number of years and he helps coaches and consultants get ideal clients consistently. We know that there’s millions and millions of consultants and coaches, like me and like probably many of you, that are really good at what you do. But, you don’t have a personality style to be somebody else that’s a charismatic guru-type and many people don’t want that style.

But, they love what they do. All they’re really looking is a consistent flow of good clients who value their expertise and who value the people that they’re working with as well. And, they want to get paid well. Dov and his small team take a tactical or tactic-agnostic approach, which if you’ve heard me before, I totally support, and they help you build a strong strategic foundation and teach you how to apply that to build a simple, client-getting system that is best for you.

Without further ado, I want to invite Dov on my podcast and get us started and let him share with you how you too can look at developing a system to consistently bring you clients that you like working with that will pay you well. Dov, welcome to the Real Marketing Real Fast podcast today.

Hey, Dov. I’m super excited to have you on the show today. You came recommended on the arm of a trusted friend, so I’m glad that Cindy introduced us. Welcome to the Real Marketing Real Fast podcast.

Dov Gordon: Thanks for having me, Doug. Excited to be here. I’ve been following your stuff, so it’s good to get to talk.

Doug: It is and it’s great to talk to somebody that’s not geographically next door, that’s living in a different part of the world in a different culture and experiencing … Well, that’s where you live, so you enjoy it. When we visit, we enjoy the hospitality of Israel.

Dov Gordon: Next time your coming, let me know.

Doug: Let’s dive into what you do to help your clients be more successful in their business. You want to share with our listeners just bit of background on what you do and how you help people move their sales dial?

Dov Gordon: Yeah. My story is the story of someone who knows he had … I knew I had a lot to offer. I’m smart, capable, talented, interested in business from age 13 when I discovered the business and marketing and self-development sections of the library a block away in Brooklyn, New York where I grew up. Marketing and sales didn’t come naturally. When I started my own coaching/consulting business at the ripe old age of 22 after never having had a real job, by the way, I knew that I had what to offer. I just didn’t have a clue how to actually get other people to see that.

The first seven, eight years was a real uphill battle. I remember one of my first clients was way ahead of me in many ways, but that’s fine. He still got a lot out of it and came back to me many years later. I remember asking him, I said … It’s such a naïve question. How many employees would a million dollar business have? His answer was, of course, “Well, it really depends on the kind of business.” Now, it’s almost embarrassing, but that’s where I was.

I knew I had skills or I had talent I should say. I had talent. I didn’t know how to market or how to get clients. I didn’t know how to turn that into a consistent flow of clients and projects and a good income.

Doug: Well, that’s obviously an issue for a lot of people. There’s a lot of really smart people out there that have a business that are very good at their craft and what they do. They just, for a variety of reasons, don’t have a steady flow of clients that are fun to work with and pay them well.

Dov Gordon: Yeah, and I’m the kind of guy who seems gifted at suffering through things, like really suffering through things. I got down to my last thousand dollars with a wife and two, I think, three kids at the time. Did not know what I was going to do. Crying and totally stressed out type suffering. Then, figuring it out. Figuring it out and then teaching others how to avoid a lot of that.

Everybody has to go through their thing. That’s for sure. There’s no fantasy land out there, but I found that I’ve come to understand some of the most basics of marketing and sales that everybody talks about, but we can explain it in a way that clicks. The light bulb goes on for many people. That’s what I’ve been doing. That’s what we do now. I’ve got a little coaching company. We call ourselves the Alchemist Entrepreneur precisely because we get below the surface to … We’re not skidding across the surface.

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The only three questions in the mind of the ideal clients are is it interesting? Can I trust you? And, is what you recommend right for me?

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Did you read the Alchemist by Paulo Coelho, by the way?

Doug: No, I haven’t. No.

Dov Gordon: It’s a good book, a really nice story. He’s got tens of millions of copies sold. Before reading that, I imagined the Alchemist of old as these grungy old greedy men hunched over a frying pan on a campfire trying to get led to turn into gold by mixing it with this and that. I read the book, and probably many people listening to this have as well, and I came away with something that I’m not sure anybody else did but this is what it meant to me.

I came away realizing that it prompted the question, what were they thinking? Did they really think they could turn lead into gold? What were they thinking? I don’t know the answer to that, but I suppose what they figured is if we can get to the underlying structure of the lead, then we can probably leverage it and turn it into something more powerful, more valuable. Gold.

Even with today’s technology, we can see the underlying structure in a way they couldn’t imagine, but we still can’t turn lead into gold. As business owners, we can. Because we have a choice. We can skid across the surface of our lives and our businesses. We can skid across the surface of our understanding, or we can strike at the root where the masses are hacking at the leaves. We can build on the underlying structure of a situation.

I’m happy to give a very relevant, practical example if you like.

Doug: Yeah. No, that’d be great. That’s what I was thinking. What does this mean for us in and for our listeners?

Dov Gordon: Absolutely. We’re largely dealing with people who have some kind of professional service firm, a small consulting firm or coaching or solo consultants. They wake up in the morning and everybody’s saying, “Here’s how you get clients. You’ve got to be doing Facebook ads. You’ve got to be doing LinkedIn posting and Twitter and … ” Remember just a few years ago it was blogging.

There are a thousand tactics and for every tactic, there’s a line around the block of experts telling you, “You’ve got to be doing this. Got to be doing that. Got to be doing that or you’re doomed. Time to rebrand, Got to write a book.” All these are just tactics. We try to follow their advice, but we get overwhelmed and lost in many, many cases.

That’s what you were talking about at the beginning. There are many people who master their craft. It’s a struggle, though, to turn that into a consistent flow of clients. Why? Because they say, “Well, you need a marketing funnel.” What’s a marketing funnel? Well, okay. What would most people answer to that question, Doug? What do you think most people would answer, what’s a marketing funnel or what’s the purpose of a marketing funnel?

Doug: I think people in business that I’ve been online for a while would think of things like click funnels, like Unbounce. They would think of software or tools but really not have a full, deep understanding of what a funnel is, how to set it up, and how to make it work.

Dov Gordon: Certainly, not the thinking behind it, right?

Doug: No.

Dov Gordon: Here’s the answer I usually get. I get the things that say, “Well, the purpose of your marketing funnel is to fill your pipeline. It’s to get leads. It’s to close deals.” You have to have that funnel so things … The problem with that is that it’s oversimplified. The proof is I don’t know what to do next and therefore I end up marred complexity. I think of it … Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr has this brilliant quote, he says, “I wouldn’t give a fig for simplicity on this side of complexity. But I’d give my right hand for simplicity on the far side of complexity.” That’s what he said.

I kind of visualize it as a continuum. You start off in business, it’s oversimplified. You figure I’m good at this. I’ll get clients. It can’t be that hard. You very quickly get stuck in the complexity of it, and most people never make it past. But if you persist, and you get some guidance, we all need some hand-holding and some coaching and mentoring, because information is not enough. You have to come to a deeper understanding of information, the things we know can talk about that. And then we eventually get to simplicity on the far side of complexity. And it’s the same thing with a marketing funnel.

Eventually, I asked myself, I realized that every tactic could work and every tactic could fail, Instagram could work and LinkedIn could work and Instagram could fail and LinkedIn could fail. Rather than what do I need to do, I realized a better question is when it works, why does it work? When it fails, why does it fail? I came up with this realization that in order for someone to go from total stranger to happily pay you really well for your help, your services, your product, you need to help them answer yes to only three questions.

And those three questions are this: Question number one, when they come across you, however they come across you, whatever tactic take whatever method. They come across your video or whatever it doesn’t matter. Their first question is should I pay attention, is it interesting, right? That’s the first question. So if you’re if you’ve crafted your message correctly, if you presented yourself correctly, then their brain goes instantly, well, that is interesting. I should pay attention to. That’s interesting.

And then instantly, they have a second question. The second question is, you got me interested, but can I trust you? Are you for real? Who are you?

Doug: Yeah, absolutely.

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The only three questions in the mind of the ideal clients are is it interesting? Can I trust you? And, is what you recommend right for me?

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Dov Gordon: And then the job of your marketing funnel at that point is to lead them to include, “Yes, I can trust you.” And then instantly, they have the third question, which is: Is what you recommend right for me? And if you lead them to conclude, what you recommend is right for me, congratulations, you have a new client. So that’s the purpose of the marketing funnel. This selling funnel. All you need to do is put one thing in place for each of those questions. You got to have the minimum in place to lead your ideal clients to conclude, yes, that is interesting. The minimum in place, yes, I can trust you. The minimum place, yes, that is what you recommend is right for me. You don’t need to be doing everything.

When LinkedIn works it’s because you’re doing that and when it doesn’t work it’s because you’re not and the same for any other tactics. When I think about getting to the underlying structure of a situation and leveraging it, it’s recognizing what you’re really trying to accomplish and that is everything you’re doing to get clients has to be to help your ideal client answer “yes” to one or more of those questions. And now instead of just being overwhelmed with ideas, you realize, okay, what is one thing I can do for each of these and that’s what I’m all about.

Doug: I like the way that you approach that, and we talked a little bit before we started recording about tools and tactics and so your example I think of the Sales Funnel is just kind of the tip of the iceberg because once you build the funnel the next question is where am I going to get the traffic? So then you go into another 500 courses and experts on how to get traffic, but I just wanted to just comment on the … is what you’re recommending for me and I relate this back to health and wellness.

There are a million experts telling you how to get fit, stay healthy, live long, but I think what it comes down to is finding what works for you. Because what works for you, and your personality and your style and your likes and dislikes is different than what works for me. I’m not Gary Vaynerchuck. I’ll never be Gary Vaynerchuck. So what works for him works for him. But like you said, it may not work for me, because I might not be competent with that style. I might not want to be on Facebook. I might find that Twitter or Instagram or Pinterest or blogging or speaking or like we’re doing today, podcasting works better for me. It’s about I think finding what kind of fits you.

Dov Gordon: And there’s another question, another point, which is that your goals are probably not even the same as his goals. And that’s another big point that people miss.

Doug: Well, I like your first point as well. I mean, should I pay attention? Today we turn on our computers and we fire up our phones when we wake up in the morning and they’re just flooded with information. So do you walk people through so as part of your consulting and helping people to get a steady flow of customers, walking them through this process of answering these three questions?

Dov Gordon: Yeah, absolutely. Because it’s simple, but like anything, there’s a nuance to it. Anything that requires some skill, there’s nuance. So, for example, one of the first things that you really need to figure out is okay, how do we get someone’s attention? Attention and interest are not exactly the same thing. A lot of things will get your attention. A loud noise, a funny joke, a tragic story in the news, but then you go back to what you’re doing. When something gets you interested, you change your plan. So let’s say you and I are at some conference, we’re walking past the exhibitors, and a lot of things might get our attention, but then suddenly, we see a banner and we say, “Hey, let’s go have a look at that.” That gets or interest. We turn to the right, we veer off our path, changes because that got us interested. We change our plans. That’s what we need to do. Whatever tactic we’re using.

Doug: Yeah. I remember hearing Dan Kennedy say that he’s a direct mail copywriter, and he said that your copy needs to interrupt somebody. So when they open their mail and they’ve got home from work and it’s late and it’s snowing. They need to be so compelling that they’ll put on their boots and leave the house and shut off the TV. That’s the difference between getting your attention and being interested that you’re willing to, like you said, change direction.

Dov Gordon: Right. Now, the good news is that I realized that there are only two things that anybody’s interested in, and this is a light bulb moment for tens of thousands of people that have heard this, because you think, well, how, how do I get someone’s interest? And when you simplify it like this, it makes it a lot easier. And that is that you recognize that people are only interested in two things. You got to talk about a problem they have, and don’t want, and/or you got to talk about a result they want and don’t have, and that’s it. If you talk about anything else, they’re not interested. You have to talk about it at the level that they’re thinking it.

You quoted Dan Kennedy. There’s another direct marketing, a bit of lore from I forget which, I forget the guy’s name from a book that I’ve never read, but heard quoted so many times. Good advertising, he said is entering the conversation going on in the mind of the ideal client. Did you hear that?

Doug: Yeah. I have. Absolutely. I don’t know what the book is either, but I’ve heard that before. Yes.

Dov Gordon: Yeah. I was reflecting on that one day, I’m thinking, well okay, what is the conversation going on everybody’s mind? I realized that all we’re ever thinking about is a problem that we have and don’t want and/or a result we want and don’t have. A change you want and don’t have. An experience you want and don’t have. I realized if I could articulate what you’re thinking as clearly or even more clearly than you’re thinking it. If I could speak that out loud, I’m going to instantly get your attention and interest. That’s the first thing that we’re helping our clients with because for example, imagine you’re a consultant, a leadership consultant. A high client, this is some real examples from clients. And a leadership consultant.

My client, we’ll call her Lisa, and some competitor. They’re both at some event, and they’re both introduced to their ideal client. The head of a billion dollar company, they definitely can always use leadership consulting, in a company of that size. And they’re just introduced to the CEO who turns to them and says, what do you do? And the other consultant says I’m a leadership consultant, and big CEO nods and thinks, yeah, we’ve cycled through those with various levels of success, and turns to my client and says, what do you do? A few weeks before she would’ve said I am a leadership consultant. Now she says, I help companies solve the problems they have with that employee who’s too valuable to fire.

Doug: Wow.

Dov Gordon: You can not only hear the difference, but you can also feel the difference.

Doug: Sure, yeah.

Dov Gordon: That’s what we do. That’s a big part of what we do. We’re really good at messaging, really good. But why does that work? Let’s understand it. Let’s not just pat me on the back, which I appreciate, but let’s understand it’s because I’ve spoken aloud a problem that he has and doesn’t want. A result he wants and doesn’t have. I’ve articulated clue more clearly than he could, certainly more clearly than any of my competitors do. And he suddenly realizes it and suddenly without me saying anything else, he suddenly realizes, you get it. You understand me. Nobody understands me. We all feel like none of us feel understood enough. But the human brain is wired in such a way that if I feel you understand me, what’s my natural next question? I’m going to ask, wow, you get it? But, what do you think I should do?

Doug: That’s right. Yeah.

Dov Gordon: That’s what’s accomplished through this. So we’re all worried about how do I stand out? How do I differentiate myself? This is how you do it. And the first question, should I pay attention? Is it interesting, you can create that reaction by really focusing on a problem, they have and don’t want and/or a result they want to have. I can give another couple of examples, if you like, just tell me where you want to go?

Doug: Sure. Well, I mean, I’ve just want to stop there just for a sec, because I’m just thinking people talk about to create your USP, what makes you unique, and in that, in your example, if you were in a room, and they had an audience full of people with a credit card ready to buy and 10 management consultants up there, they would say, “Hey, well, I do the same. I provide a good service. I do this, I do that.” They have all these things that mean nothing but the way that your client described it, like you said, hit home and right to the heart of the matter. You take what you do and frame it in a way that your client sets you aside different than the other 10 people on the stage.

Dov Gordon: Absolutely. And you bring up USP, which I understand the intention of it, but I have a problem with USP. I think people teach USP as follows. Maybe you’ve heard this as well. Look, if you can swap out your competitor’s logo above the USP for years and still sounds the same or it looks the same and people don’t see a difference, then you don’t have a good enough unique selling proposition. I feel like so many people get stuck on that. But if we look at … Let’s go back to the three questions that I brought up. I think this will really drive it home. I’m so glad you brought that up because I haven’t talked about this in a long time.

The only three questions in the mind the ideal client is should I pay attention? Is it interesting? Then you got me interested can I trust you, and is what you recommend right for me? What’s the purpose of the USP? The USP is going to help them answer yes to the first question. It also might help them answer yes to the third question, right?

Doug: Right.

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Dov Gordon: We instantly recognize that my goal is not to have a USP, my goal is to help them answer yes, yes, yes. And when I realized that I can stop getting so stuck on the USP thing, so I can stop worrying if my competitor sounds very much like I do, and instead focus on the client. And if I can get into their mind and articulate their problem, the problem they have and don’t want. The result they want and don’t have which is my own phrasing of this. I kind of came up with that, saying that because others have been copying me without credit. So I just say, these people should [crosstalk 00:18:49]. I’m not copying them.

I have a guy who … there’s a guy on YouTube who’s got some video, lots of views. He literally stole stuff from my webinar, a webinar I do. Including my examples, including some of these examples that I use all the time. And this guy, I’m not gonna … I’m tempted to say who he is, but-

Doug: Let’s not go there.

Dov Gordon: Yeah, yeah. Anyway, whatever. So, yeah.

Doug: While you share a couple of other examples I understand the USP as well, and I just think that the way that you described that is a way to be different, because it doesn’t matter what event you go to, you’ll hear the same conversation. People will stand up and say, there’s 30-minute elevator pitch, and hi, I’m an accountant. Hi, I’m a banker. Hi, I’m a … And that’s not very creative, because it doesn’t help solve a problem. I know I fail at that. I look at the copy of my website, I’m thinking, yeah, I’m not really answering or solving a problem for a client. I’m trying to sell a drill instead of trying to sell them the hole, which is what they really want. They don’t want to buy a drill, they want a hole.

Dov Gordon: Okay.

Doug: What were your other two examples that you had where you helped somebody walk through this process and help them to better identify and answer those three questions.

Dov Gordon: I’ve got so many examples, but there’s a few that I’ve memorized that I can share them without having something to think about. Another one that that comes to mind is life coaching. We had a life coach as a client, and she was good. She was already … she wasn’t struggling for clients, but she wants to do better. And so, instead of talking about life coaching, whatever it was that she was doing, we helped her go from I’m a life coach or I help whatever. Now she says what she does is I help women who wake up in the morning wondering if I’m so successful, why am I so unhappy? I help women who wake up in the morning wondering if I’m so successful, why am I so unhappy? Now, you can feel the difference there as well. You instantly know who her ideal client is. They can instantly recognize you’re talking to me or not, right?

Doug: Yep.

Dov Gordon: And again, you feel like wow, yeah, well, you get me, you get me. Who are you? Can I trust you? What are you all about?

Doug: You say that and I right away think of Hollywood then I think of the people that have not … that have committed suicide or left this world because from the outside world, they had all their success, but they weren’t happy. There was a deeper issue. So it’s like, wow, that’s a powerful way to present that.

Dov Gordon: Yeah, absolutely. And that’s what she does. That’s what she helps, but it’s … Another life coach example that popped into my mind because life coaches struggle because they have their hearts in the right place but they’re often not treating what they do as a business and they don’t really understand why marketing and sales.

We’ve worked with some over the years and mostly we’re dealing with consultants of some kind, professional service firms consultants, but it’s a good example and it’s stuck in my mind. I said make a list of the things you can help, problems you can help solve those also you can make a list. She made a list, and I looked at the list and said there, you can build a business on that. I don’t remember precisely what she had written but what I came up with for her or with her was I help parents know exactly what to do when their teen drops a bombshell. It was something like that. I’ll help you know exactly what to do when your teen drops a bombshell. And it’s like now suddenly … I think was a little better than that. But that was the gist of it, right?

Doug: Yeah.

Dov Gordon: Again, it’s suddenly the idea is meeting … it’s all rooted in the problem they have and don’t want, results they want and don’t have. Being clear as to who’s the ideal client, what’s the problem we have and we ought to speak that aloud in a way that is at least as clear, and usually clearer than they are thinking it themselves.

Another client of ours is a psychologist, and we helped him narrow his message down and now he talks about how he helps confused, hurt, angry couples make a wise decision about their future together. And that’s who he wants to work with. He wants to work with couples who have been married probably 20 years doing well financially. And they’re not necessarily in a rush to get divorced. But they can’t seem to figure it out together.

Doug: Yep. That’s really cool.

Dov Gordon:I help confused, hurt, and angry couples make a wise decision about their future together. I can go on and on, but we should probably stop. It’s gonna get … It’s your call, it’s up to you.

Doug: Yeah, no, I asked you at the beginning, I said just share what you’re really passionate about. And don’t be shy and that’s the goal here is because we need to sometimes sit back and reevaluate what we’re doing and that’s why this podcast exists is to bring in experts too that will shed light on new opportunities. What you’re talking about is something obvious, it’s achievable for people, but it also is simple enough. I think you can get your mind around why it would be important to do this. And not just be another fill in the blank.

Dov Gordon: Yeah, absolutely.

Doug: What are some of the myths? And what are some of the pushback you get from people when you talk to them about the strategy, or do you get any pushback from people?

Dov Gordon: Well, sure. You asked this is what we do. And this is the kind of thing where you can understand it on one level, but it’s hard to implement. And part of … and that’s why people often need help with this. First of all, there is a skill that I and my team, we’ve been holding this for many, many years. But then there’s also, we get in our own way and people think well, but if I just say I help them with that employee who’s too valuable to fire they’re not going to realize I can help them with team building or whatever else.

And we have this resistance. We’re afraid that if I’m too narrow, I’m too focused then they’re going to think that I can’t … that I’m going to miss out on opportunities. That’s the kind of pushback that I often get. But the truth is, again, let’s go back to the three questions, which I like these three questions because they are the foundation of everything. Look, people won’t even notice you, if you want to get their attention and interest, you’ve got to speak a lot about the only two things that they get that they’re interested. And that is a problem they have and don’t want, a result they want and don’t have.

And then you have to speak about at the level that they’re thinking it. Enter the conversation going on in the mind. And that conversation is like, I can’t get this … They’re doing good work, but something’s going to have to give here because I don’t want to fire them. But we’ve got all these other issues going on. We have to enter the conversation at that level. If we’re too high, they’re not going to hear us.

I’ll give one more quick example that I think really drives it home. I had someone join a webinar a number of years ago and his website so that we help executives … We sell dashboards and reports that help executives deliver better results. That’s what it said. We sell dashboards and reports that help executives deliver better results. And the question I asked is, well, what’s the problem you help solve? What’s the result that you enable? It could be 100 different things. You got to go backward and say, well, who’s your ideal client? And you get a picture of your ideal client. Let’s say for example, for argument’s sake his ideal client is Joe CEO, head of a half a billion dollar a year company. And Joe just installed a multimillion-dollar information system, and he wakes up in the morning, and he’s really annoyed. Why can’t I get the data that I need from this new multimillion dollar system so that I can make these important pricing decisions?

Now, two scenarios, scenario number one, Joe walks out the front door … In both scenarios, you have a billboard right opposite Joe’s front door. In both scenarios, you got that. You have a billboard right there. Now in the first scenario, your billboard it says we sell dashboards and reports that help executives get better business results, and you can help Joe. He doesn’t know it, but he walks out the door. He walks to his car, he won’t even notice your billboard. He will not even notice it. It won’t even register. Same Billboard, but this time your billboard says, we help you get the data you need from that multimillion dollar information system so you can make difficult pricing decisions. After he picks his jaw he’s gonna be on the phone with your company before his rear end hits the seat of his car.

Doug: Sure.

Dov Gordon: That’s what we’re talking about. You could talk high level about what you do, and you’re going to lose everybody and that’s why you’re losing everybody.

Doug: Well, the other thing that popped into my mind as you were sharing that and listening to the way that you help the people craft their message, I immediately went and thought of PR. If you think of the opportunity for your clients or for our listeners to attract the attention of the media. The media have the same three questions to answer that every client does, and that’s going to make you stand out as well. They don’t want to interview another life coach. They don’t want to interview another marketing consultant. They’re looking for a hook that solves a problem as well.

Dov Gordon: Absolutely. And for them, a big problem is they want something original. They don’t want to be reporting on the same thing everybody else does.

Doug: I just read Christopher Lochhead’s book Niche Down, and it was a really good read. I’ve been listening to some of his podcasts, and that’s what he talks about niche down, niche down, niche down, and I find myself often not wanting to niche down because you might miss an opportunity, as you said, but then what you’re doing is you’re missing all the opportunities, instead of attracting the people that you can help the most and that are probably in your wheelhouse.

Dov Gordon: Yeah, absolutely.

Doug: What are you most excited about today? The world’s changing at what seems like a million miles an hour. I go to my email, and there are 10 new problems I didn’t know. There are issues with Facebook. There are issues with Google. There are email works, email doesn’t work. Instagram is working, Pinterest isn’t working. There’s a new tool out there. It seems like every day a new webinar. What gets you excited about what you’re doing?

Dov Gordon: Well, what gets me excited is the things that don’t change, timeless principles, mastery, master your craft. The people who, so many other people who follow advice when it comes to marketing and selling their expertise, never would have followed the same advice at acquiring their expertise. So for example, let’s say someone is a leadership consultant or whatever, there are certain skills you need to build up over time, and you’re going to follow … Certainly, let’s use something really obvious. Okay, if you’re a pianist, a violinist, a surgeon, a lawyer, you approach this … Even if you go in deep sea diving, tennis, you start with foundational principles, insights, and then you build your layer of skills and understanding upon each other over time together with experiential practice.

Why is it that when it comes to creating a consistent flow of ideal clients, why is it when it comes to getting your message out there and so on, that we believe the lie that we’re told that just follow the steps in my marketing blueprint and you too will have this Lamborghini next year, or whatever it is. We have to realize that we’d never buy this crap when it applies to anything else that’s a nuanced set of skills. Why do we believe it here? That gets me going, and we have to stop believing it.

We have to recognize that marketing and sales. If you’re not a natural, and most of us are not. It can be boiled down to a series of ways of thinking principles and application. And there are so many ways to succeed. It’s just the opposite of what most people think. Most of us approach our businesses as if there’s only one right way to succeed, and I just need to figure out what that is. If someone would just tell me what the one right way is I’ll be fine, but it’s just the opposite.

Doug: Well, and like something else you said earlier too is that we probably already have enough information, most of us and enough knowledge to go out there, and to help a client but instead, we’re looking for more knowledge. We’re taking more courses. We’re buying more tools. We’re reading more books. We’re going to more events, instead of doing what we should do, which is going out and serving your client.

Dov Gordon: Yeah, we’ve got to master and more deeply understand things we already know rather than go off and look for more information. The trick, of course, is that how do we know what information actually matters? Because there’s always that critical 10% of knowledge and knowhow that gives you 90% of what you want. That makes it brilliant 90% of the time. I think for that we need some kind of mentor, some kind of coach, someone who’s mastered what we’re trying to accomplish, just like we would if we were a lawyer, if we were a doctor, a surgeon, a pianist, a violinist, it’s no different with building a business. Someone has to help us see what matters.

Doug: Yeah, you’re right. And it’s funny because so often if you look at professional sports, they all have coaches, they have trainers. The elite guys have massage therapists and physiotherapists and they have dietitians. And then you compare that to somebody that’s building or built a seven-figure business and wants to build an eight-figure business and often they’re trying to put all this stuff together without that level of support, coach, and training that the athlete has. I’m not necessarily about their health, although their health is super important they don’t have that support. I don’t understand that. I don’t know if you have any insight in why as humans we don’t do that for our business but you’ll watch the top athletes in the world invest in themselves.

Dov Gordon: I think that … I talk about the alchemist’s entrepreneur and I don’t know if we have time to go into this. We could if you want. The way I see it is the alchemist entrepreneur that is a combination of the athlete plus the artist plus the entrepreneur. And the athlete to use your example kind of envisions a standard of performance for themselves and then works in a disciplined systematic way to achieve that standard of performance. When it comes to many business owners it’s not as clear to us I think. I think there’s a number of factors, one is that it’s one thing to say take a 1,000 three point shot. Practice 1,000 shots. It’s a lot easier for us to visualize that in a certain sense. But for us, what we should be doing itself often isn’t so clear. That’s one thing. That just reinforces the point of why we need some coaching and guidance, that’s for sure.

But then there’s also there’s this, I think most people are operating out of a fear of what they’re afraid will happen. They’re playing not to lose rather than playing to win, focused on creating what you really want to build. Because if you’re setting out to build a $30 million widget factory, and then you’re like, okay, I really want to build this $30 million widget factory. You look in your bank and you’re in minus 1,000. You can say, oh, shoot, I don’t have the money. I guess I’ll go back to my job. Well, you’re not serious. You’re not really interested in building that widget factory.

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The only three questions in the mind of the ideal clients are is it interesting? Can I trust you? And, is what you recommend right for me?

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Think of somebody like Elon Musk. He must have like a stomach of steel. This is a guy who decided he wanted to build an electric car company and he wants to go to Mars. And he wants to have reusable rockets. When he wakes up in the morning, he didn’t know how he was going to do it all. He didn’t even think Tesla would succeed, he says. He just thought it was worth a shot. You get out of PayPal worth $200 million. And then you invest it all into Tesla and SpaceX, you get to the point where you can’t afford your rent. I don’t know about you Doug, but I would have at least squirreled away $20 million, at least, where I’m not touching that. But that wasn’t what he did. No, I don’t have that stomach.

Doug: I like him. I agree with you.

Dov Gordon: I like him too.

Doug: It’s funny that people will take shots at him all the time. And I’m thinking you’re just an armature. You’re just an armature athlete. You’re just sitting there watching the game on TV. He’s playing the game. His blood, sweat, and tears there on the line. And I think of what he’s done for America in bringing the space program home. Yeah, I agree. He’s just brilliant, and he goes out there and he just puts it all on the line and he just is passionate and without the end in mind. I shared that on my episode 100. I said I didn’t know how to do a podcast before. I didn’t know how to write a book.

There are all these things I didn’t know how to do, but that didn’t stop me from putting them on my list and getting started. And then what I found was, as I went along, a lot of those steps came and there were people that would train me and coach me and help me and there’s a lot of things that I saw once I started that I couldn’t see. And I didn’t see until I got started. Until I took that step I didn’t know and thinking of your part of the world I remember our pastor once saying, “You can’t just dip your toe in the river. If you’re going across the Jordan, you got to get in.” Elon Musk certainly has done that. And I think as business owners sometimes were so afraid of wanting to see every step along the way we don’t get started.

Dov Gordon: Absolutely. And that’s another thing is the answer is that we’re not fully committed to what we really want. Whereas, he is. I don’t have the stomach to play the kind of game he plays at that level. I could never do that, but that’s not the point. The point is I look at him and I say, okay, but where am I falling short in my clarity and commitment to what I say I want. And when you’re fully committed to what you say you want, you’re gonna make sure you have the tools and the support that you need just like he does.

Doug: Yeah. Now, I also like your quote or just a comment a minute ago that people are playing not to lose versus playing to win. Do you have something you want to share and just expand on that?

Dov Gordon: First of all, I don’t get credit for that one. I didn’t make that one up, but I’m not sure who did but it’s really good … playing not to lose is like I just want to make sure I have enough to pay the bills or I won’t invest in getting this help or that system, whatever it is, because I might not get clients. You’re making your decisions based on what you don’t want rather than I have something important to accomplish here, to achieve. I’m not going to get everybody on board. I’m going to fail. It’s going to hurt along the way so I might as well get started. And I’m playing to win and I’m going to take the risks. The calculated risks, not reckless but I’m going to take and like you said, not just to jump in. I’m going to jump in. And that means acting as if you expected to win. Taking the next step, making your decisions not based on where you are today, or where you’re afraid you’ll end up but where you want to be. That’s what I see is the difference.

Doug: That’s really cool. I could talk to you for hours. I love your approach. I love your thinking. And boy, I’ve got a page of notes here and I’m feeling a little bit guilty about some of the directions that I’ve taken thinking now I got some stuff to change on my own marketing, and this is what I do every day. This is great information.

Dov Gordon: That’s another point here. I don’t think you … Since you’re out there every single day and doing I don’t think you’re really beating yourself up too much. But that’s something else that we compare ourselves to other people. So some people listening to this, right. Don’t take Doug so seriously on that point because he’s just taking … I don’t think Doug that you’re really beating yourself up, but some people do and they should not. Compare yourself to where you were yesterday, and just take the next small step.

Doug: You’re right. I look at it as improving and that’s why I like what we do even in our fitness routine is I’m not looking at the guy beside me what he’s lifting. I’m looking at what I’m lifting today versus what I lifted last week or two years ago because I’m not 25 like he is I’m me, I’m 55, not 25 so why would I compare myself with somebody else? I think taking that to business people look at somebody else as super successful and they don’t know what it took to get there. They just go, “Well, hey, I’m not … fill in the blank. I’m a not that guy.” Well, that guy had a different start than you did. That guy has different skills than you do and he’s been doing it longer. So you’re right. Look at where we are, our own scoreboard and push forward.

So, a couple of questions and I’ll let you go back to your day. And I just want to say again, before I ask you the extra question that I really appreciate your fresh approach to marketing. I think you’ve left some really simple concepts, but I don’t believe they’re going to be simple for people to implement. I think it’s going to take some thinking and some quiet time for people to get this and then very likely some help to do that. Who’s one guest I absolutely have to have on my podcast?

Dov Gordon: Casper Craven. I can introduce you if you want. Casper Craven, do you know him?

Doug: I do not. Nope.

Dov Gordon: He wrote a book. But it’s not really about the book. The book is just a story. Casper decided a number of years ago, he and his wife and their two kids have decided that they’re tired of their [inaudible 00:38:53] life. And they decided that five years from then they were going to sail around the world, with their kids, take two years to sail around the world. They didn’t have the money to buy a boat. They didn’t have anything. They didn’t know … they didn’t have the medical training that was required for that type of trip. And they had two young kids and by the time they ended up doing it, they had three young kids and yet they made it happen and it was hardly required constant …

First of all, I really admire the thought that they put into this. But that is a perfect example of someone deciding. A couple deciding that look, we’re not being what we could be. Life is not what it could be. Let’s step back, what do we really want? What would be an amazing experience for our kids, for ourselves? He has that story about how he had to change as a person in order to become the person who really can make that happen, and they did. And while he was in the middle of the Pacific, I think it was he managed to sell his business. He had to learn marketing. He had a business, it was nothing special, but eventually, he was able to sell it. I really liked his story. I’ve connected with him because of that and read his book, and I think he’d be a fascinating guest.

Doug: That’d be really cool. I love big thinkers. And I think that’s … Well, and not just big thinkers, people who take action. There are lots of people who have big dreams, but I tell people I don’t have a bucket list. I just do stuff. I have one thing on my bucket list and that’s all. Where can people find you, connect with you, learn more about you, the service that you offer and just start a conversation?

Dov Gordon: Anyone could email me [email protected]. That’s D-O-V G-O-R-D-O-N .net and there’s no E in there. Dov Gordon D-O-V G-O-R-D-O-N, but I want to give something valuable. For five years I sold this for $97. And I want to give it away for free. This was not created to give away but I give it away because … We call it my manual. It’s called, How to Systematically and Consistently Attract First Rate Clients. There’s zero fluff in it. I just got a note from someone yesterday thanking me because she discovered a few months ago, and she’s reading it for the third time. I don’t know if she’ll ever spend a dime on me, but I get notes like that all the time. But there are some people who read it, and they realize, you know what, I want to get your help to actually build this because I’ll move through it a lot faster. I decided to start giving it away. So, it’s a kind of win-win. You can get that at dovgordon.net/doug in your honor, D-O-V G-O-R-D-O-N.net forward slash D-O-U-G, Doug.

Doug: Well, that’s awesome. That’s really cool. I will go download that as soon as we’re finished our podcast episode and get to work.

Dov Gordon: Well, thank you.

Doug: Any last parting thoughts you want to leave with our audience before we let you go?

Dov Gordon: Go after what you want, don’t settle for what you think you can have and that’s it. I find that to be a challenge every day. I’m not coming as somebody who finds it naturally easy. But I try to remind myself of that and if I could live in the next five minutes, the next 30 minutes, the next 60 minutes going after what I really want, not settling for what I think I can have, then that starts to add up into days and weeks and months and before you know it, you’re actually living life instead of just being blown sideways through it.

Doug: Yeah, I couldn’t agree with you more. I just finished reading a book by an author by the name of Erwin McManus called the last arrow and that’s basically what he talked about was you leaving it all on the field or you’re holding back. So, there we go. There is another episode listeners of Real Marketing Real Fast with Dov Gordon. I really appreciate him taking time. As I said, he was introduced to us by our fellow marketing contact I’ve got, and I think there’s a lot of valuable information here.

I’m going to go down and load his information that he’s sharing with us, that he was selling now he’s giving away to help us be better marketers, attract an ongoing flow of good clients. So thanks again. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure you subscribe to us on iTunes. I look forward to your feedback. We publish this so we’ll make sure we transcribe the notes so those of you who like to read it can read it and we’ll make sure that we’ll have the links in there that were shared in this episode. So look forward to serving you on our next episode.

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The only three questions in the mind of the ideal clients are is it interesting? Can I trust you? And, is what you recommend right for me?

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"Innovation isn't just thinking outside the box; it's about setting the box on fire and building something extraordinary from the ashes."

Doug Morneau