Tips on how to have more confidence and power by Shana James

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The more responsibility, the more leadership you have, the more some of those old wounds or old places where you feel a lack of confidence and power can suddenly arise 

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Doug: Well, welcome back listeners to another episode of Real Marketing Real Fast. Today we are going to dive into a different type of conversation. If you think of each of us as unique human beings working where we’re planted in the marketplace whether we’re entrepreneurs or we’re managers or we’re marketing managers, whatever we’re doing, we likely have a lot more going on than just what people see at work. There are likely relationships. There might be wives and kids. So we’re going to try to take a lot at more of a holistic approach and consider the idea that if any of those areas of your life aren’t finely tuned and working well, that will carry over and all the other areas of your life will suffer as well.

Today in the studio I’ve got a guest and I want to introduce you to Shana. She has for 15 years been a coach and she’s coached nearly a thousand men. The men that she’s coached have been leaders, CEOs, authors, speakers, and men that had big visions to go out and change the world. These men step into a more powerful leadership. They start to grow businesses, create more effective teams. They increase their impact, they get promoted, they find love, they rekindle a spark, they create a legacy and they become more personally inspired and fulfilled.

Shana has been known for her ability to assess in just a few minutes the cause of distraction and the stuck points in your professional and your love life. She creates a clear and unique path for you and me to experience true success, incredible love, and sex. Referred to by men as a secret weapon, she cuts through distraction and provides you direct access to your confidence, power, and clarity. She is also a translator of women speak which I can’t speak for you but I could always use some health with, and she’ll give you some effective tools to transform conversation and the dynamics that have gone awry into connection, affection, and passion. With an MBA in psychology and DISC certification, she has more than a decade facilitating groups, workshops. She is an entrepreneur having started multiple businesses and helped hundreds of entrepreneurs start their own.

I’d like to welcome Shana to the Real Marketing Real Fast podcast today.

Shana: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here.

Doug: So we had a great conversation a couple weeks ago and I’ve had a chance to look through your website. Was there anything that I missed in your introduction, anything new that is updated since we last spoke?

Shana: I don’t think so. I really feel passionate and excited about the overlaps between the world of business and the world of relationships, everything from the bedroom to the boardroom if you want to say that. So yeah, so excited to be here. I’m excited to support your listeners.

Doug: Well I think that we probably, I can’t speak for everybody, but I think that at times we forget that we bring our work, our office work or whatever our work is into the bedroom and sometimes we’re thinking of relationship things while we’re at work and if those two areas of our lives aren’t in balance, we’re probably not performing at our peak and our best in either case.

Shana: It’s so true. I talk to so many, I often work with me but I’ve worked with women too so I imagine you have both men and women. I often recently more work with men and I talk to me who are struggling in their relationship and they feel clear and confident at work and then they go home and their partners are not responding to them. Then they go back to work and in some ways it’s an escape or it’s a place they can feel powerful, but it in other ways they’re not then bringing the full power that they would be if they were going home and getting juiced and supported and if it was a way that they were adding more to their confidence and to their power versus having it taken away. It can happen vice versa, too. People can be in a really comfortable relationship and then go into work and not get a raise or not get a promotion or have a hard time delegating. So like you’re saying, we can bring them both into the other world.

Doug: I’m not saying this assumption’s right, so I’m asking you because you’re the expert. The relationships are obviously different, right? So when you’re in a relationship with another person, a sensual relationship, whether it’s your spouse or someone that you’re just living with, there’s not the same level of control if I can use that word that there is in the workplace. So if I’m somebody’s manager, I can tell them do something. And I basically have the gun because I’m the boss and I’m saying, “Do this or there’s going to be a consequence.” But that approach obviously doesn’t work at home with your spouse or your kids.

Shana: It’s a great point. I also work with what I like to call inspired leadership so that “yes” you can hold the power card over someone, but I think leadership tends to work a lot better when there is collaboration and people are inspired and then when they feel like their contribution is actually really being appreciated, I think people tend to work harder. They tend to be more loyal.

But it’s a really great point. When you go home sometimes the power you have in work you suddenly don’t have that. That can be really confusing for people.

Doug: Yeah and I’m not suggesting that’s a good way to manage people. If you look at the millennials and the way the world is working, people will work harder for someone when they buy into your vision-

Shana: Exactly.

Doug: … more than they will if you pay them more. You’re right. There’s a lot more to that relationship. I thought it was interesting that you also focus on men. Now you and I had a conversation a few weeks ago, and the interesting point for me as I said that being a type A dominant male, one who doesn’t want to stop for directions, or the typical things that the jokes that are true about most men, we don’t seem to reach out for help or put our hand up. We have more of an attitude of, “Hey, suck it up buttercup,” and then just keep going. So I thought it was interesting you identified that and say, “Hey, I’m going to help the men.” I’ve seen a ton of women I know that are coaches that are coaches just for women. I’m thinking, “Man, there’s such a great opportunity for you to share your insight and your vision and your coaching abilities to coach more than women. Coachmen that are struggling with a lot of the same issues.”

Shana: Yeah. It’s true. A lot of men come to me who are single and they’re doing well at work and for some reason, as you said, it’s not translating. I’ve worked with men who have wildly successful companies, they’re doing incredible work, having powerful impact in the world, and then suddenly they go on a date and the women, again and again, respond to them and say, “You seem really nice and you’d make a great friend, but that spark isn’t there.

Doug: Yeah, well. I guess sometimes I don’t know. I’m not a matchmaker, but I’m assuming that those things obviously take time. It’s probably easier to hire a good employee than it is to find your perfect soulmate for the rest of your life.

Shana: I would say while that’s true, there’s also a way where … I worked with one man who was having that experience and as we worked together and he got clear about what he wanted, he got clear that his sexual desires were actually good, right? There are so much shame and guilt and all kinds of crap that we as a culture put on men for liking sex, wanting sex, and so a lot of men are stuck in a box with a lot of shame around their sexual desires. There is work that I’ve done with men, and this man in particular, where then he went on a date and suddenly a woman was like, “Wow. Who are you?” And suddenly, “I want more with you. I want to be with you.” Right? It changed for him in a short period of time.

Yes. It is hard to find a partner more than it is to hire someone, but there are also ways that I work and I call them the invisible accelerators. Right, there’s more going on then what’s on the surface and what we say or do. There’s how awake your body is when you’re interacting with someone and that makes a huge difference whether it sails or dating or whether you’re already married and going home to your partner. If you walk in the door and your body is kind of dead or asleep.

I used to walk around kind of not even knowing that my body did much besides eating and exercise. Now I have this whole way of my body actually communicates and feel energy moving through my body, and so but if you walk in the door and you’re asleep, you’re not going to instantly wake up your partner’s body or if you walk into a board meeting or a funders meeting and you’re kind of dead in your body, your first impression is going to be much less inspiring than a man whose body is awake.

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The more responsibility, the more leadership you have, the more some of those old wounds or old places where you feel a lack of confidence and power can suddenly arise 

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Doug: I think people definitely feed off your energy. If you’re energetic, now I’m not talking about jumping around energetic, obviously, but I mean if you’re full of energy and life and vitality and you have that sparkle in your eye and that smile on your face, you’re obviously a lot more attractive than someone who shoulders are rounded, looking your feet as you drag your heels walking around.

Shana: Right. And you know it’s so interesting that you say that because one version of it is your head’s down, your shoulders are down, you’re dragging your feet. Another version is that you’re puffed up and maybe you do have a smile on your face but it’s empty. A lot of me tell me that they go into work and there’s a kind of like, “I’m pushing through this and I’m acting confident, and yet some part of me,” and this is really successful men so this is why I also like to say that you’re not alone. If you’re a very successful man and you’re out there and you have these moments where you wonder if you’re a fraud, where you don’t feel confident or you start to wonder if life has meaning anymore. You can have your shoulders high and a smile on your face, but there is a different feel.

There’s a different feel when you actually have a true vitality and life feels meaningful to you and then there’s also something about how you connect with another person. There’s a way that you can in silence really connect with a person, and then there’s a way that you can ask questions that have someone feel really heard and seen and understood. Again, that makes a huge difference whether you’re talking about being at home with affection or in the bedroom or just that emotional connection with your partner and in sales and business and leadership.

Doug: What are some of the biggest issues. Can you give us, without obviously naming names … Can you give you us an example as men are struggling to move forward, I mean this world is changing so fast these days and technology are coming and it’s understandable that people are feeling pressured and maybe lacking confidence because there’s a new something every day whether it’s bitcoin or crypto-currency or what’s happening in the market, what’s happening in the financial markets. What are some of the big points that people come to you and say, “Shana, this is my …” Because you said, “I can identify this issue very quickly.” So what are the big issues that you most often see?

Shana: That men come to me struggling with?

Doug: Yep.

Shana: I would say-

Doug: I was going to say not necessarily that they come … I mean what they come to you for, I’m assuming, this is just my guess, is maybe not what they’re really struggling with. They’re coming because they think they’re struggling with X, and you’re saying, “No. It’s actually Y.”

Shana: I would say that’s true in a way. The doorway that men come to me is either, “Something in my relationship isn’t working, whether I don’t have one or I’m not having the affection or sex that I want,” or “Something in my leadership isn’t working or I’m not getting the promotion, I’m not being recognized, my startup isn’t getting funded,” things like that.

Ultimately, I think it all goes back to a similar place of, “How much do I actually believe in myself? How much true confidence do I have?” I don’t buy that confidence is, “I should be able to do anything. I should every skill and every bit of knowledge,” and that that’s actually what you need to be confident.

When I work with men on true confidence, it’s the ability to find and hire people around you who know more than you without feeling like then somehow you’re less than or you’re small. It’s about how to be able to ask for help and ask for what you need and what, again, whether it’s in the bedroom or the boardroom, and still feel really good about. So ultimately, I would say if we’re talking about on the deepest level, it’s really a sense of feeling good about ourselves or feeling like we have the capacity to accomplish our goals.

Then there are other people who come to me, and men especially, where it’s like, “I’ve been working. I’ve been taking care of everybody in my business, everybody in my family. I’m now in my 40s, 50s, or 60s and what the hell happened to my life and what the hell happened to me? Right? I’m feeling kind of dead inside. And I have all this success but what do I have to show for it? That feels like a different piece for me. That is more around supporting men to feel inspired about what they’re doing and to recognize that they actually get to choose based on what feels exciting and inspiring to them instead of trying to take care of everyone else in their lives.

Doug: Now would part of that not also be kind of prioritizing. I mean, when we’re younger, we’re hustling, we’re trying to build, if you’re an entrepreneur you’re trying to build your business. Or if you’re an employee you’re trying to hustle to build your career. And I just wonder that sometimes a lot of that is, hey, that was really important to me then.

Shana: Yes.

Doug: I needed to get to a point, whatever that point was, and now you stop at that point whether you’re 30, 40, 50 or 60, and then you’re going, what happened? Like I shared with you about my son saying, “Hey look, Dad came home to visit.”

Shana: Yeah.

Doug: And I was like, “Mm, not a good response from your child.” So, how much of that is a priority and how much of that is lack of confidence?

Shana: Well right, I think some of it is a priority from the past, and getting stuck in a life that you created when you were in your 20s or starting your career.

Doug: Yeah.

Shana: And so than getting to, well a lot of men I’ve seen kind of have that nose to the grindstone. And there is, I’ve been watching a lot of the new series Man Enough, and there’s all this talk now. I love it that it’s being recognized of men. Our condition is not to show weakness, not to show that there’s any problem. Men often who have an illness or heart conditions or whatever, like a lot of men, don’t go to the doctor. There’s, men are taught to be proud and strong.

Doug: Yeah.

Shana: And so, you can go for ten, 20, 40 years and not stop to actually recognize, “Oh my God, this is the life that I choose and I created and I wanted when I was younger.” And I actually haven’t reassessed in all this time, because I’ve just been trying to do “what’s right”

Doug: And I would think that’s an advantage. At least I would see as an advantage finding the right coach and then finding the right mastermind. And so you’ve got some peers that understand you, understand business and can walk with you through the deep stuff and give you honest feedback and cheer you on without risk of I mean, this maybe isn’t a conversation to have with your spouse or this isn’t a conversation may be to have with your manager or your boss or your neighbor or your best friend because they don’t have that experience to walk through it. They might say, “Hey,” like what I used to say is, “Hey, just suck it up.”

Shana: Right. [inaudible 00:16:53]

Doug: Now I know that’s, I understand that’s the wrong approach. Sometimes you do need to rest and you do take care of yourself. You do need to take vacations. It’s not a badge of honor to work 20 years and not take a vacation.

Shana: Right, or you do need to vent or you do need to say to someone, “Listen, I am experiencing this really challenging situation and because everybody works for me, I don’t really want to tell people that I’m afraid.” Now I’m a big fan of vulnerable leadership, but there are things where you don’t want to go and tell your whole company that you’re terrified that this next deal isn’t going to come through and you’re not going to be able to pay them. Right? Just because, and maybe even more so, as you get more and more successful, you have more and more responsibility. And I think it’s important to be guided like you said, by a coach or in a mastermind or something about how to work smarter, not harder. Right?

My dad raised me to do it all myself. And I think there was kind of this, I don’t know if it came from him or the culture, right, but it’s if we’re not struggling, then we’re not, or if we’re not, how would I say it? Not necessarily struggling, but it’s like struggling is a sign that you’re working hard enough. Do you know what I mean?

Doug: Yeah.

Shana: [inaudible 00:18:06] or not necessarily struggling like you’re not making enough money, but it’s like if I’m actually relaxing in the middle of my day. Sometimes I think, “Oh, I’m doing something wrong.” As opposed to, “Well this is what I’ve worked so hard for to be able to create a life where I can actually relax at certain times, and still have the impact I want to have and get done what I want to get done.” So, it can be hard to have some of those conversations with your spouse. Even if that person’s the closest person to you, you don’t always want to bring work home.

Doug: Yeah.

Shana: And I think again, the more responsibility, the more leadership you have, the more some of those old wounds or old places where you feel lack of confidence can suddenly arise and it doesn’t mean you’re not fit for the job, it just means that there’s some old conditioning to look at and work through and be supported with.

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The more responsibility, the more leadership you have, the more some of those old wounds or old places where you feel a lack of confidence and power can suddenly arise 

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Doug: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I just finished reading a book called The Big Leap, and it’s been very interesting.

Shana: Oh, that’s a good one.

Doug: And one of the things he said is it’s okay to have everything going well and be having fun. I’m thinking yeah. I mean, my saying used to be, “Have fun, make money,” not necessarily in that order. If I can have them both at the same time, that’s a bonus. But I just thought it was interesting that it took an author writing it saying it’s okay to do that. So.

Shana: Yeah, well it is. It’s really interesting that so many of us, I love that book and that kind of where we can reach an upper limit where things go well for a certain length of time, and for some people it can be five minutes, and for some people it can be a week or a year. Or it can be “Wow, suddenly I’m getting along with my partner, and then we have this huge fight.” Right?

Doug: Sure.

Shana: [inaudible 00:19:53] that was really-

Doug: Yeah. It was funny because I was reading through your coaching application on your website.

Shana: Yeah.

Doug: And that’s what kind of triggered me to reflecting back on the book because looking at question five, in this is assuming all human beings have some way of holding back or sabotaging their lives.

Shana: Yes.

Doug: Which is basically what his book is about. What are your favorite methods, not looking going, “Okay, procrastination,” and I see in my work lots of times its procrastination because people can say, “Oh, I’m marketing my business? But I’m not getting the sales.” “Well, define sales.” “Well, I was updating this on social media. I was updating that.” “Well, were you having a conversation with a person?” So, procrastination’s one. And then you go through this whole list of the arrogance of being right. Yeah, I’ve been there acting as Lone Ranger. Yeah, I’ve been there. Not saying, no, I’ve been there. So yeah, there’s, I can check a lot of these of ways that I’ve sabotaged things in my life.

Shana: Well, and you’re such a master too. And it sounds like what you were just saying is that if you’re doing all these actions, but you’re not actually connecting with another person, or you can be spinning your wheels and taking action, but it may not be the action that’s actually going to give you the most bang for your book.

Doug: Yeah, because I think procrastination can come disguised. It can be like she, or what is it, the sheep in wolf’s clothing. Or however, that saying goes. But it’s well disguised. I need to rebuild my website, then I can market my business. Like no, just go talk to some people. Join the chamber, join the trade association, get out of your office, just go talk. So, there are lots of things that we can put out there that look good from the outside world of, “Oh look at, look at Dough’s working really hard building his website, but it’s like no sales.” So, that’s a different way of procrastinating.

Shana: Yeah, and procrastinating can come, sometimes men come to me procrastinating and women too, and they say, “I’m procrastinating and I don’t know why.” And sometimes when we really get into the deeper layers of it, it’s, “I don’t really want to do this anymore.” Right?

Doug: Yeah.

Shana: Other times it’s, “I feel like a fraud.” Other times it’s, “I would want to do this if I was actually also having some fun and some hot, passionate affection and sex in my life. But right now I’m so burned out from working so hard and not having that, that I don’t want to take this next step,” right? So, I love that you said procrastination can be a mask for so many different things. And those are conversations that you don’t necessarily have with our friends or our partners all the time.

Doug: Yeah. Well, and I like a lot of Bernice Brown’s writing about shame.

Shana: Yeah.

Doug: My daughter was reading one of her books, and so I kind of feel if my kids are reading something, I should find out what it is they’re reading. And I just fell in love with her writing. And if I look back at our local church where we go, the number one program that’s typically listened to year after year that’s recorded in the whole sermon that’s done on sex.

Shana: Oh, interesting.

Doug: So, the pastor says, “Hey, this is not PG13. Your kids need to be downstairs.” And it just funny because of no shame. He’s saying, “It’s really simple.” He said, “God created the world, created man and woman and created them to be in a relationship. And sex is good. And neither partner should be withholding from the other partner.” So, he goes through this whole thing. It’s really, it’s interesting because I don’t think anyone wants to admit that they like it, but you can tell how many downloads it gets that it’s a very popular discussion. I’m not sure whose downloading it, whether it’s the men or the women, but somebody someplace is downloading and listening to it.

Shana: Well, and it’s interesting too what you just said about neither partner should be withholding, right? I think sometimes couples get into ruts. Many people come to me and I ask them, “When’s the last time you had a conversation with your partner about what you like in sex?”

Doug: Yeah.

Shana: One man told me it was six years ago when we first got married. And I was like, “okay, so wait,” I was like, “Let me understand this [inaudible 00:23:56] what you like.”

Doug: That’s a long time ago.

Shana: And he said, “Yes.” And I was like, “Okay, well now I feel even more hopeful because look, now we can give you some ways to talk about this, and tools. And you need to ask for what you want.”

Doug: Yeah.

Shana: And to get curious about what your partner wants, without, a lot of times people have conversations. It was actually another conversation I had, I think it was this morning, where I asked a man, “When you brought that desire to your wife, do you think you brought it in a kind of frustrated and pent-up way? Or did you bring it with more of the vulnerability and the heart,” and the kind of, I don’t know? Men don’t necessarily use the word longing. But there is a kind of longing desire. Know what I mean?

Doug: Yeah.

Shana: And he said, “Yeah, probably the frustration and the pent upness.” And that’s another thing I think coaching is really powerful for is to really express some of that pent-up energy, the disappointment, the frustration, then I can’t fucking believe this is happening. And the things you want to work through before you bring them to your business partner or colleague or your partner so that you can bring it to them in a really constructive and inspiring way.

Doug: Yeah, in a way that they can relate. I mean with your training, I mean with DISC, I mean understanding people’s personalities, you know that people listen, learn and interact. Men react to stress differently, so I think you’ve got an advantage there understanding that. Because you can communicate in the language that I would best understand.

Shana: Yes. It’s a really good point. And it’s good to really learn that what is the saying? I think it’s, “Communication received is communication given?” Or something like, if someone doesn’t actually understand what you’re saying, or if they can’t take it in because it’s not in their language or their way of understanding, right, then your message isn’t going to get across. So, how to really learn to speak to whether it’s the opposite sex, or if you’re in a same-sex relationship it’s still learning how our partners work. And then I’ve worked with business partners as well, and the more they start to work and the more deeply they start to work together, the more it becomes like a partnership. I used to joke that, I had a business partner for a while and we called her “second wife,” as a joke. I hope that’s not too offensive but, she and I opened our bank account at the same time I got married and opened a bank account with my husband. And we just joked about it because we would have these long relationship conversations when we had a different pacing or a different approach to something.

And so, I think a lot of people who enter into business together don’t realize that that’s going to happen, and how powerful it is to actually really start to understand and communicate in the way that the other really gets it.

Doug: Yeah, and I would just have to admit from my side just arrogance and not doing that. But I mean, after going through the personality style testing and getting into a room with other people and I didn’t really know why people couldn’t understand what I was saying, or sometimes why they wouldn’t get an order, why I would offend people. I went, well if I offend a bunch of people, it’s just fewer people I have to talk to. Which isn’t optimal. But what I learned was that what people thought was, “Hey, you’re arrogant and you’re pushing your way and you’re dominant and you’re this and you’re that.” It’s like, well, that’s how I’m wired. And then you learn that they’re wired, hey they need more information, they want to see it this way, they want it presented that way. And I’m thinking oh man, that’s a ton of detail. But for me to have a meaningful conversation with that person, I need to, I call it style shift, shift my style toward the way that they’re going to receive it, so they better understand what it is I’m trying to communicate.

Shana: Yeah, it’s true. Very true. Yeah.

Doug: So, looking at what you’re doing, what are you most excited about in the next six to 12 months?

Shana: I like that question. Well, I think what I’m most excited about is actually really laying out, like I was saying these, invisible factors or the invisible accelerators of success and attraction in a way that men can really understand them and then getting to practice because, or getting to practice with men. And it’s been so fascinating. One of my favorite exercises with men has been when they walk up to me silently, and they don’t say a thing for like 30 seconds. And then I respond by saying what the impact they had on me is. And I’ve done this over Skype too, just [inaudible 00:28:48].

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The more responsibility, the more leadership you have, the more some of those old wounds or old places where you feel a lack of confidence and power can suddenly arise.

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Doug: Now you’re making me very afraid if we ever met.

Shana: Yeah, it is totally different, but yeah. But it’s thrilling because a man can start to actually get a sense of where, how he’s kind of occupying his body, his energy, his emotions, and what he’s conveying without even knowing it.

Doug: Right. Yeah.

Shana: The impact. And I happen to be a woman who’s done a lot of work and a lot of training, and I really do love men. I feel like I get to love men for a living. So, I’m not coming from a judgemental or shaming place, which there are a lot of women who do that. And you can’t really take in the feedback or get support when that’s happening. So, I lovingly get to say, “Okay, here’s how I would, you have a better impact on me. Here’s how I would whether it’s attraction or influence around business, here’s what would have me feel like A, I trust you, B, I respect you. C, I want to say yes to you. I want to be close to you.”

So, those are the things that excite me is when I actually get to interact with men at the moment, for the men who feel courageous enough like you said.

Doug: No. I’m just, I mean it’s interesting, I mean because I always think that when I’m working with people, so when I’m working with a coach, what I don’t need is another friend, right?

Shana: Yeah.

Doug: So, I don’t tell people if you want a friend, get a dog. If you want to hire a coach or someone to train you, you want someone who’s going, to be honest with you but in a respectful, loving way that’s encouraging, not discouraging. But you need the honesty. Other than that, you might as well stand in front of the mirror and do affirmations, “I’m great.” But you’re never going to actually find out where you need to one your game.

Shana: Yeah. It’s so true, right? I mean, you don’t want to hire someone who’s just going to blow smoke up your ass, but you do want to hire someone who’s going to encourage you and support you and  help you to see your blind spots, and help you see why that conversation didn’t go well, or why you’re being overlooked for a promotion, or why your partner doesn’t want to have sex with you or isn’t affectionate with you, right? You want-

Doug: Or say, “Hey dude, that’s like a mullet. Like those went out years ago.” Like, lose the mullet and the flared jeans. I mean those, like this isn’t the 80s. Welcome to this new millennial.

Shana: Yeah.

Doug: Yeah. Yeah, I’ve seen people like that before. I’m thinking seriously, that’s how you show up to a business meeting? Wow. Beds and cowboy boots. That’s very interesting.

Shana: Yeah, it’s is interesting.

Doug: But everyone’s got their own style. It’s definitely not my style. I definitely-

Shana: Well, it’s true, right? And you and I said this before, I think, in our conversation, but I do appreciate that in some contexts, there’s a right way to show up for a business meeting.

Doug: Yeah.

Shana: In other contexts, you can be the unique person you are. I mean, you said to me you don’t answer emails before 10 A.M. right?

Doug: Yeah.

Shana: And one of your client’s was like, “What’s with that? I answer them all the time.” And you said, “This is the way I do business. And this is how I live my life now because I have a more balanced life.” And so there are probably some people who show up with cowboy boots and a mullet, and they’re doing really well in business because they’ve found their unique way of doing business, and they have clients who are a fit for them. They may have more hippie or free-spirited client.

Doug: Sure. No, fair enough, yeah.

Shana: Well and same with men, and relationship and attraction and women too, it’s like I never want to say you have to be a certain way, and this is what’s most masculine and this is what’s most feminine. It’s like really let’s find out what lights you up. And what feels most exciting for you and what’s most meaningful for you. And then from there, you get to find a partner or work that actually feels aligned with you.

Doug: Yeah, that’s right. And then you’re more authentic. I do understand that. I have cowboy boots. I just don’t wear them to business meetings.

Shana: [inaudible 00:32:43], exactly.

Doug: It’s my weekend wear. So, what are some of them, or let’s sum up, let’s restart, what’s one of the biggest myths that you hear around coaching and business coaching men the way that you’re coaching them?

Shana: What’s one of the biggest myths I-

Doug: Myths. Yeah. I mean because often people say, “Oh, what are the three best this, the three best that?” And so, I’m a big Tim Ferris fan, and so I like Tim’s question in one of his last books I read and it’s like, what’s the bad advice that people are giving?

Shana: Yeah.

Doug: And your space?

Shana: Well, again, I think it goes down, goes below the surface. Right? Like the bad advice I see are when men are given, women too, I keep saying men but it’s everybody. When people are given scripts, right, of like this is the thing to say. These are the rules. This is the dating rules. These are the rules for being married or in a relationship. These are the rules for how to go propose your business, your startup, whatever, and how to try to get funding. I think people are really missing the point, right?

I think these days, especially I think we’re evolving to a point where people want real people. People want the story, the heart. The depth of what we’re doing. They want the why, right? Simon Sinek’s books and TED talks and everything is extremely popular because people are really looking for that deeper why.

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The more responsibility, the more leadership you have, the more some of those old wounds or old places where you feel a lack of confidence and power can suddenly arise.

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Doug: Yeah, the five whys, yeah.

Shana: Yeah, so I think we can really box ourselves in, and I think the bad advice is to follow this script and say it like this and look like this, and then it takes the life out of what we’re doing.

Doug: Yeah, and I don’t think we’re meant to copy everybody else as you said. Someone explained it to me this way a long time ago, you kind of be a mirror and reflect back everything you read and learn. Or you can be like a coffee filter, and I’m a big coffee drinker, so I like this, you filter out the stuff you don’t want and you keep the stuff you do want.

Shana: Yeah, I often say when I’m doing relationship work with men, I say, using someone else’s lines, like a pickup line, is like a short, wide man wearing a tall thin man’s pants. Right? They just don’t fit. They just don’t look good on you.

Doug: Yeah.

Shana: So, if you’re someone who uses humor or doesn’t humor, but you’re trying to use someone’s line whose really suave and funny, right? It’s going to see completely ridiculous.

Doug: Yeah. No. I mean, you’d like the guy that I just talked to a week or so ago. His business is called Sales Unscripted, Jim Padilla, he’s down in-

Shana: [inaudible 00:35:16] I like Jim.

Doug: Yeah. He’s funny. And I mean, and that’s what he talks about in a sale. So I mean, if you know him, that he talks about sales that are minimal 1000 dollar sales, but a lot of them are 50, up to 100 grand. And he’s saying, “No script.”

Shana: Yeah.

Doug: Like listen to people, get to know where they’re at. And he said, “My sales guys don’t have a script.”

Shana: Yes. I love it.

Doug: So, I would think the bad advice that I hear in your space is, “Oh, you don’t need a coach. You’re just fine.”

Shana: Oh. Uh huh.

Doug: And I think that translates, this is just my interpretation, so I don’t have any degrees or anything to justify the other than I think it’s people are-

Shana: You have a lot of experience, so don’t sell yourself short.

Doug: No, I’m just saying, just my full disclaimer, I’m not a psychologist. They, I think people do one or two things. They either A, don’t want you to change, because you will move out of their comfort zone, or B, they’re just trying to be nice.

Shana: Yeah.

Doug: I think what’s weird about business, at least in my opinion, is in business we seem to be reluctant to get a coach.

Shana: Yeah.

Doug: In relationships with people that we’ve made commitments to, we’re reluctant to get a coach.

Shana: [inaudible 00:36:19] it’s totally reluctant.

Doug: Yeah, you just have to turn on the TV, and pick any sport that’s out there, whether it’s bowling, football baseball, find a sport, wrestling, weightlifting, they all have coaches. So why aren’t we willing to invest and do that?

Shana: Yeah. It’s true, and I think that’s, sometimes we’re not even aware of how well we can perform and how good life can be. And there’s a lot of trade-offs. I see a lot of men that’ll for one or the other like I can be successful here but not over there. I can have a good relationship here, and I’m just going to eh, I don’t really like my career but I shouldn’t ask for life to be better than it is. That’s selfish, or that’s asking for too much. And I don’t believe that that’s true.

Doug: Nope, me neither. So, we’re on the same page there. So, parting thoughts: Whose one guest I should invite on my podcast?

Shana: Oh, whose one guest you should invite on your podcast? Well, tell me you want more again, in the business realm?

Doug: Yeah, how to make people superstars at what they do in their career, their marketing, their business?

Shana: Oh man, I’m kind of drawing a blank.

Doug: No worries, we’ll come back to that another day. An easier question.

Shana: Okay.

Doug: What’s the easiest way and the best way for people to reach out, find you and connect with you?

Shana: Yeah, so you can find me at And there’s a form you can fill out to reach out to me. I’m also on Facebook and Linkedin, so any of those ways you can find me.

Doug: So, there you go. Well, thanks for taking time out of your day today. I appreciate it. I understand this is not a perfect fit for the melding our two worlds together, but I think it’s important because we forget that there are many parts to us, and we’ve got family and we’ve got community and we’ve got work. And all those pieces, those parts of us need to be functioning at peak performance if we’re going to function at peak performance in all those areas.

Shana: Yeah. And I really appreciate you for seeing that, right? For seeing that okay, on this business and marketing podcast that you value the rest of life as well, right? And you can see that if, it’s like, right, we have a car. And if one tire isn’t actually spinning, it impacts the rest of it, right? You’re not going to be as powerful as you can be in your work, in your sales, and all of that unless you’re actually firing on all cylinders and having an amazing life in all the realms.

Doug: Well, like yourself, I’ve got kids, and I’ve got, am in a relationship. It will be 30 years coming up this September. And so, that’s a long, 35 years dating, 30 years married. So, we’ve done some stuff right. We’ve done some stuff wrong. But we’ve had kids and we made a commitment a long time ago that we were going to do it the best that we could, and that doesn’t mean just me working 24 hours a day.

Shana: Right.

Doug: That means taking time and looking after and spending time not buying and sending things to my kids, and my wife to go hang out and to have conversations and have date nights.

Shana: I know, and I think just to complete it like the saddest thing I’ve seen is where I’ve seen men who’ve worked so hard to get to that point of retirement and then have a heart attack. Right?

Doug: Yeah.

Shana: And worked and worked and worked and waited, or waiting for the end to finally let themselves have some fun and relaxation, and then never got to have it. So, I don’t want that to be your listeners.

Doug: No, me neither. It’s good to have balance in your work life, relationships. I didn’t always have that, but I consider myself a lifelong learner, so hopefully, each day that goes by, I get a little bit better at it.

Shana: Yeah.

Doug: Well thanks again, Shana, for investing in our audience. I appreciate your feedback. And I would encourage you guys to head over to her website. I’ve had a chance to go through her website thoroughly. I did go through her questionnaire to get an idea of how she looks at and begins the conversation. So, it’s a pretty easy process. We’ll make sure that the website and Shana’s social media links are linked in our show notes. So, thanks again for tuning in, and we look forward to serving you on our next episode.

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The more responsibility, the more leadership you have, the more some of those old wounds or old places where you feel a lack of confidence and power can suddenly arise.

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