Three keys from this episode:
- Personalize your email to engage customers
- Improve your sender reputation to improve email deliverability
- Just because someone unsubscribed doesn’t mean you’ve lost them as a customer. Use retargeting and other methods to stay in touch
Doug: Well, welcome back. I am super excited today to be speaking with Kate Barrett. She is the founder of eFocus Marketing and the Email Marketing Academy. And she provides specialty email marketing consulting services and management as well as training to companies all around the world. She has a track record, a proven track record of 12 years experience increasing results from opens and clicks to sales. Kate's experience and passion has helped a large range of companies develop comprehensive strategies to target subscribers with the right message sent to the right person at the right time, implement, manage, and optimize those campaigns as well as solving complex email marketing issues with regards to deliverability.
Some of the companies and brands that she has worked with and trained include Nissan, Marks and Spencer, Argos, Vision Direct, BT, TUI, Sole Trader, Neighbor and Hotel Group, Photobox, My Voucher Codes, M&M Direct, and Adidas, among many others. Having been elected a member of the DMA Email Council for the last three years, she speaks regularly at events. She blogs, and she's a contributor to Smart Insights and a trainer for the IDM. Kate is always up to date with the latest email marketing news, trends, and techniques to feed her passion for the industry.
She is an author and soon to be published book, Etelligence, Email Marketing Isn't Dead, the Way it Used to Be and should be out in bookstores in 2018. So, welcome to the show!
Kate: Thank you so much for having me, Doug. I'm really excited to chat with you today!
Doug: Well, it's good to catch up and it's good to talk to somebody who has a common interest and a passion for email, email marketing, and using that as a vehicle to drive sales.
Kate: Oh, absolutely! It is an absolutely critical channel. It is the foundation in my mind of all marketing. It doesn't matter what you're doing. It's all going to drive back to your website. And if you don't have your email marketing set up properly to help you to capture that data, you're not going to have that ongoing opportunity to nurture your leads, generate those sales. So it is absolutely vital to any marketing strategy.
Doug: Well, looking at your CV and the kind of work that you do, I mean, you cover a lot of areas, right from conception right through to deliverability. So, what do you say right now is your, probably the biggest challenge for your clients?
Kate: Biggest challenge for clients right now, so in the UK at the moment, everyone is gearing up for the GDPR changes. So the new European legislation that's coming through, the general data protection regulation. That's definitely the biggest challenge for people right now [overseas 00:02:45]. It's pretty similar to, in Canada when [CASL 00:02:50] changed over and really tightening up those expectations around consent and expectations of what they're going to receive, when they're going to receive it, but also digging into the right of access to data, the right to be forgotten, to have your data removed, all of those kinds of areas. That's certainly the thing that is a forefront of a lot of my client's minds at the moment and making sure that they are compliant with those changes when they come in May 2018.
But generally outside of that, I think that it's the same things that we see generally, issues with deliverability, not getting your email into the inbox, making sure that you're getting in front of people. It is looking at, and in connection with the ties of my book, so email marketing isn't dead the way you're using it, it is people have, they get into a rut, I think sometimes with their email marketing where they're perhaps sending out their sales communication maybe once, maybe twice a week, whatever frequency that is. And they're making good revenue from it, but they suddenly sit there and go, “Hang on a minute! If we're making really good money just doing this, what else could we be doing?”
And they don't necessarily have that expertise internally within the business to take their email marketing to the next level. Deliverability problems and solving those is always something that comes up, but also helping people use email intelligently and go past, we're still in that stage of trying to go past the [inaudible 00:04:19] blast and getting more into automated, personalized, really relevant campaigns, that one to one to many basis. That's certainly the key areas that my clients are focusing in on.
Doug: Well, it's interesting now because the technology over the years continues to march forward and for those of us in the industry and those that are listening, the ability to be able to send highly customized messages based on what people like, don't like, whether they clicked on your site, whether they clicked or didn't open. Geographically, we've got all these tools there. And you're right, people are still blasting and I'm lucky if they even put my name on top of the email.
Kate: Yeah. Oh, absolutely! The amount of times I don't even see people doing that, that's the basic level to start building trust. Like you said, the technology is there that if people invest that time and the money obviously to take that technology on. And although in a lot of cases, it doesn't necessarily involves millions of pounds of investment to get …
Doug: No. That's right!
Kate: … this technology on board. But if you can buy into the fact that you need to put your customer first and if you can get technology that helps you to do that, that's key. But I think the biggest problem and the biggest resistance that people have around that isn't necessarily actually taking on the technology, it's having the data in the right place to able to use the technology for them to get personal. A lot of companies still have data in different silos, so it's all over the place.
Kate: And a lot of companies, again, that I see is going through that process of trying to get that unique one time customer view where they've got everything all together and then can start really personalizing based on previous purchase behavior, based on email engagement, based engagement with other marketing channels, or the other wealth of data they've got out there. So bringing that together and then layering that technology on top to be able to get really personal. That's I think where the disconnect comes sometimes.
Doug: So what would you recommend for people that are looking at deliverability issues? It's a huge discussion all the time. They're in the space and I'm assuming a lot of people don't, they're really not aware of that. So in terms of people improving their deliverability, do you think that a lot of that is focused on them delivering relevant content to their end user?
Kate: Yeah, absolutely. So deliverability is all about your sender reputation. You've got your domain reputation that is certainly coming more and more to the forefront now. But the real key issue is your IP reputation. Sender reputation is made up of lots of different factors, and one of those factors is engagement. So if you are not getting good engagement from what you're sending out, there's something not hitting the mark with your content, or when you're sending it, or who you're sending it to. Right message, right person, right time is absolutely where you want to be focusing. And if you are seeing issues with your deliverability, that is the first place other than checking technical infrastructure, all of that kind of [inaudible 00:07:26] with my clients.
The first place that I look at is engagement. What's your negative engagement like? What are your complaint rates like? Do we need to work decreasing your negative engagement? Or is that you're not getting enough positive engagement? What are open rates looking like? And usually when we're talking about engagement from business terms, we'd be looking at open, clicks, click to open rate, conversion rate. But in terms of deliverability, Hotmail, Microsoft, AOL, Gmail, Yahoo, they're not looking at any of that. They're only looking in terms of statistics that you can see, at your open rate. They don't track clicks, they're not tracking conversions, they're not looking at that.
So from a deliverability standpoint, very different from how you're measuring engagement within your business and the purchasing behavior. So starting with the open rate as a positive metric, and there's a whole lot of other hidden metrics in deliverability that you can't see. So looking at how long people are reading your messages for, how often they're reading your messages, did they look at your message before they deleted it? Did they forward that message onto to somebody else? Did they reply to that message? All of those positive engagement metrics are what the mailbox providers are looking for. So we've got to be optimizing them.
So if you are having a deliverability problems, start with your engagement. For example, I had a client recently who had done migration between email platforms. And they found that after they went through the IP warm-up process, that their Gmail inbox rate just completely bottomed out, completely went to zero percent. They weren't getting anything into the inbox at Gmail. It was all going to the junk folder.
Kate: So what we did was we said, “Okay. We need to break this down.” And we know that particularly with, you're looking at Microsoft and Gmail, they are both heavily focused on positive engagement. So you need to be looking at that. So we took a segment of the audience. And for this particular client, we took it back to who had opened the email in the last 60 days and just started sending email to them. So showing Gmail a good sending engagement coming though, and within three sends, we got back up to 100% Gmail inbox placement. So after that …
Doug: Wow! That's huge!
Kate: … We had started … Exactly! Right! But it shows the value of engagement. You've got to have that engagement because they put so much emphasis on that as to where they deliver you to. So once we'd done that and we'd started to show Gmail, “Yeah. We are a good sender. We're getting a positive engagement, they got it back up to 100% inbox placement.” Then we slowly start to bring in some of the slightly less engaged data. So the 90 days open data …
Kate: … The 180 day open data. You either get to the point where you can bring all your data back or you get to a point where you start to see Gmail dropping again, in which case, you say, Okay. We've got to 180-day open data. There's something after this is not quite right. We need to run an engagement campaign. We need to look at taking this data out of our audience because it is just not engaging to the level that we need or engaging at all in some cases. So, engagement is absolutely key to deliverability.
Doug: That's really cool! It's interesting because I was thinking about, as you were telling me, we had that deliverability issue with a client, and that's exactly what we did. We just segmented their data. And we just focused on delivering to people who opened.
Doug: And we just consistently did that. And I said, “Well, what about the rest of the list we're going, they're not opening it.” So we're just hurting your deliverability, so just focus on the people who like you. And we'll eventually add the others in and maybe move the non-openers to a different service and see of we can re-engage them and put them back in as a real opt-in.
Kate: Exactly, yeah! IP segmentation and doing exactly what you just said is the absolute first place to start when you see those deliverability issues. And I think it's what a lot of people don't understand, deliverability I think is still seen as a little bit of a dark art by some people. And particularly, marketing people who are focusing on what they're sending and getting that revenue in, and …
Kate: … I don't want my emails being delivered! If you don't get your emails delivered, then it doesn't matter what kind of strategy you've on the other side …
Doug: That's right.
Kate: … How fantastic your content is. No one's gonna see it.
Doug: You've got killer content and no one's getting it, it doesn't matter.
Kate: Exactly. So you've got to really focus on deliverability. And engagement is such a big factor and it really talks to making sure you do have really valuable content that's going out, but to the right person at the right time. Automated campaigns as we all know are the absolute best way to do that, but getting more personal with what you're sending and why you're sending it. And using email intelligently as I said earlier, and putting the customer first, really breaking down … I've been doing other work with my clients at the moment around customer journeys. And what channel are you using to talk to people at what stage of the journey? And when it comes to email, what are you sending at each stage of the journey to make sure that you are maximizing the opportunity to deliver what the customer needs at that point?
Doug: [crosstalk 00:12:42] Sure.
Kate: Exactly. Some who has just discovered your brand and is still in that consideration stage of the customer journey is at a very different point and needs completely different information from somebody who's already purchased from you 10 times.
Doug: Yeah, absolutely.
Kate: So, you've got to break it down. If you don't, you are not giving yourself the best chance of creating maximum revenue from this amazing channel.
Doug: Well, and what I thought was really interesting as I was looking at some data just a little while ago about mobile marketing. And to many, this was super shocking and going, “I can't believe this!” And it was that the trend is for people on their mobile device to mark your email as spam if they don't either A, like the content that you're sending them, or B, if it doesn't display well on mobile. I'm thinking, “Don't they know it really hurts their reputation, but they don't really care?”
Kate: No, they don't. And that term, spam, is bound to bounce so easily by people. I've certainly, with some of my best friends and my family, “You're the spam [runner 00:13:43]!” I'm like, “No!” I send an email that people want to opt it into databases.
Doug: That's right! If I don't send it, they send me a note going, “Where are you? I missed your email today.”
Kate: Yeah, but people are I think at this day and age, we are bombarded, and I hate to use that term, but we are, and just in our general life. All around us, we are targeted with messaging whether its billboards on the street, or TV advertising, or emails, or social media, or SMS, or via all sorts of things in so many different ways. But email is the one channel that has stayed strong throughout everything coming and going. And my prediction is, and hopefully, it will keep me in a job, email is just gonna keep getting stronger and stronger because it's a channel, everyone has an email address. If you want to sign up for social media, if you want to sign up for Facebook, for example, you need an email address. Facebook communicates with you via email if they have to get a message to you.
Doug: Sure. Yeah, absolutely.
Kate: Right? Outside of their platforms, it's such a critical thing and the thing is that people are bombarded with so much, that they have a very short attention span. So if you are not giving them a content that fits how they're looking at it, so like you say, if you're not sending a mobile-optimized email template, if they can't read easily, get to that information, they either just go past it really quickly or mark it as spam. Because to them, you're annoyed them.
Doug: Yeah, absolutely.
Kate: And that's what, that's when they say, “They're spambotting us.” You've got to make sure that you are providing the right information to people in the right way and making sure it's easy for them to take the action that you want. Don't make it more difficult than it needs to be.
Doug: Yep. I totally agree. Now what would say would be the biggest myth about email? And I want to just frame it a little bit and say, “Right now, everyone is hot whatever the new thing is.” So, we had all the social channels, and you had [Gary B 00:15:57] saying, “It's got to be Snapchat.” And now I'm getting all these offers for chatbot. So and compared to other channels, what do you think the biggest myth is?
Kate: Great question. I think the biggest myth is that email is dead. People have been bounding that around for the last 10 years. And email is just getting stronger and stronger. It is the channel that provides one of the strongest return on investments of all the marketing channels. I think the only one that comes close is search engine marketing.
Kate: And obviously because of Google, and other search engines out there, it's where we all start, isn't it? They've built themselves into our lives.
Doug: But I mean, it's funny because I did, I ran the numbers for our clients that we do email for. And we said that email is really the best response that we got for our clients in the venture capital business. And we compared to social, and social wasn't scalable and even buying ads using Google, AdWords, or Bing, or whoever we're using, Yahoo. We just couldn't compete because you're really competing with other people that may have less experience and they may be, this doesn't sound great, but they might be ignorant, really on how to bid and build a strategy. So they inadvertently raise the pricing, and this priced out of the space. Yet with email, we just continue to crush it with email while people are off on the fringe spending, blowing their budgets someplace else.
Kate: Exactly, I think what people think is that you have to use one or the other. And actually, it's completely the opposite. The best way to get a return on investment from marketing that you're doing is to combine the channels. So …
Kate: So use your social media to drive through to get a sign up to your email program. When you've got them on your email program, you could nurture them. You can take them towards that, building that relationship from making that purchase, and then make a repeat purchase. It's using all of those channels in combination. And again, using email intelligently, email is one of those channels as we said that the technology is there now that if you've got the data in the right place, you can provide information that is so targeted to what people need because you can put in that information from lots of different places. So it could be that you're pulling in data from what they've purchased previously or what they have or haven't done. Behavior on your website, for example, you can really get down to the nitty-gritty of helping people exactly where they are with the information that they need.
Doug: Yeah. And with the data like you said, the technology is there that you should be able to if you want to implement a social media strategy, you should be able to take your data that you've got in your database and run some analytics and see out of your database, where are your subscribers? Are they on Instagram? Are they on Pinterest? The data is there. So if you're gonna expand into other channels, you could use that as a base to figure out where your audience already is.
Kate: Absolutely. And using Google, using Facebook to run retargeting ads as well. One of the great examples that I can give is even if somebody has unsubscribed from your email list, it doesn't mean that they are disconnected with your brand, they could still be purchasing from you, for example. It may just be the, and I know it's a sacrilege to say it, but at that time, they just don't want email from you at that time or you weren't doing a good enough job through email.
Doug: No, they're not.
Kate: [crosstalk 00:19:30] content, right? But take those unsubscribes and put them into Google or Facebook and run retargeting ads to them.
Doug: Absolutely, yeah. That's brilliant!
Kate: Not encouraging them to come back onto your email list or anything, but just using a different channel to get to them. And you know they might come back onto your email list eventually, they may not. That's fine. But it's a great way to again, link those channels together, and use that information going forward or having combined campaigns. So for example, if you know who are abandoning their basket, and you're an online retailer and you have an abandoned basket email program going out, you could test taking that segment of data put it into Facebook and running retail retargeting ads through that. Combining the channels is a great way to increase the revenue that you're generating, but also have that cohesive message or across multiple channels and giving, again, that customer journey more life, and the same messaging that's going out across multiple channels rather than conflicting messaging. Get it all working together.
Doug: Yeah. I don't really understand why this just hasn't been a topic. For me, this has been the biggest secret in marketing that we have these big email databases that everybody has worked so hard to build. The [money is in the list 00:20:48]. And they don't leverage the list by loading it to Google or loading through Google [outwards 00:20:54] or loading it to Facebook. And they're remarketing, and I'm sure that people, it's marketing that your competition can't see. Because if they're not on your list, and when you load your custom audience, they're not gonna see it. And you can talk to them differently in those ads because they already know who you are, they were on your list like you said, at one point.
And there are lots of brands I unsubscribed to because I, you mentioned it, I like shopping at their stores, I just don't like their email because they don't provide any value for me other than always trying to sell me something. But they're a top of mine when I want to go buy something. So I may engage with them on social, but I'm less likely to get another set of emails from a particular store to come down and buy their whatever is on sale.
Kate: Exactly, absolutely. And so just because somebody unsubscribed, you can still utilize that information. Just like you said, you know that they're interested in what you have to offer. We all have sections of our database that are unengaged. And to come back to deliverability, that's exactly where that comes into. A lot of people that I speak are like, “But just because somebody hasn't engaged with our emails for a year, you say that we should get rid of them?” That's just an example in terms of a time frame there, but I'm using that as an example. For travel or what have you, that would be a completely different time frame. But certainly, in terms of deliverability, you do need to look at that from your emails.
But again, just because we're gonna decrease the frequency of email marketing or remove them from our email list for those reasons, we can still use that information elsewhere. And obviously, I really should be saying this, should I?
Doug: People have different channels. The old days of just listening to radio advertising and then TV is gone. And so people have fragmented and the market has spread out. Email might not be somebody's preferred method of communication. They might prefer to see everything on Twitter. And that tells you how old I am.
Doug: Absolutely! I still use Twitter. So I guess the millennials are doing everything in Snapchat and Instagram. So they may not …
Kate: To some extent, but again, to sign up for those, they still need to have email. And email is still the preferred choice in terms of those direct communications where A, if somebody purchases from you, you're not gonna give them a purchase receipt or follow up education about the product that they bought through social media. You can't-do that.
Kate: That's not a one to one channel. Email is still absolutely king when it comes to building those relationships and definitely is a place to integrate different marketing channels together. But I think even for millennials, exactly as we've just said, they still have to have an email address to sign up for Snapchat or …
Kate: … Or Instagram, or … And email is still the channel that people go to when they want to find special offers or let's say, Black Friday for example. The first place you go is to your email list. What are those offers that are coming out? And then you go through and go through to the websites and might make those purchases. Email is still absolutely at the forefront of marketing and like I said, it's that one to one channel, whereas, with social media, Facebook could change its algorithms at any time as it likes to do as all of the social media sites like to do.
Doug: That's what I was just thinking, yeah. They're not alone. Yeah, everybody does.
Kate: Exactly, they all do, right? I like to use Facebook as an example because it's one of the biggest. But if they change something or you have a page as we've seen, the reach on pages, unless you're paying to play, has gone down to a fraction of a percent, I think. You've got to pay for those ads, but with email we're still seeing, if you're doing it well, from a B to C side, 30, 40, 50, 60 percent open rates, and getting that message in front of people, and even if people aren't opening your message, you're still in a place where they associate with those ones who want communication. So even if they just see you in their inbox, they're much more likely to see you there than they are necessarily in their newsfeed on Twitter, or on Facebook, or on Instagram because that just moves so fast.
Doug: It does. Yeah, I know. You just can't keep up and I was working on, I'm writing a book right now and I was looking for some data. And I was able to go back to my email and do a search and find some data I was looking for that was six years ago.
Doug: And with social media, lots of times when I'm opening up a social media, I'll see a post that I like and by the time it fully opens up, it's six down in the row and I can't find it.
Doug: It moves pretty quick. I've got three kids that are in the millennial space. And they all actually have multiple email addresses as I think many people do because they realize that it's a great communication tool and it's required for so much of what we do. I don't imagine anytime soon our banks are gonna be sending us a Snapchat of what our back balances are or our next transaction.
Kate: Exactly. So yeah. Email definitely has a place, but it really does keep coming back to that same point that email marketing isn't dead. The way you're using it is. You've got to get more personal, you've got to get more intelligent with how you're using email. The rise of artificial intelligence certainly over even just the last 12 months and the technology coming into play in that space, and again, it's just using your data intelligently to provide the right kind of messaging, putting the customer first. What is gonna help the customer? How can we try and preempt what it is that they're going to want? Don't get me wrong, artificial intelligence is obviously still in its very early stages. There's lots of development that won't happen [without 00:26:37] over the next five years, but I'm really encouraged and excited about the advances that I'm seeing. And it is about putting the customer first. What do they want?
If you put them first and provide what they want and what they need for where they are in their journey with you, you are much more likely to generate revenue from that, which gives you what you need as a business. So customer first is absolutely I think the biggest trend that I'm seeing at the moment. And I'm encouraging my clients to move towards is thinking about the customer first and how you can help them.
Doug: Yeah, absolutely. It sounds so basic. You listen and you go, “Well, of course, you put the customer first.” But you're right, people don't. They get to their list and they go, “Hmm, what ad can I send them to drive revenue today?,” as opposed to, “How can I add value to somebody so they really love me and they tell their friends about me?”
Kate: Exactly. Let's think about the post-purchase experience, for example. How many brands out there do you see who sends the order confirmation, the order delivery, and then a review message? That's usually the standard messaging that you'll receive via email after a purchase, but why not help people? Why not send them information, a little video about how to use their product properly? Let's say if you are …
Kate: … A company selling beauty products, show me how to use that product properly because if you show me how to make the most of that product, I'm gonna come back and reorder from you. If you give me that lovely experience, let's think about when we're walking to a shop in a physical world. Let's take it offline. If you have a great experience with customer service, in a restaurant for example, if your waiter or waitress has been fantastic and you've built a good rapport with them, and they've given you fantastic service, even if perhaps the food wasn't amazing, you're gonna go back there because you had a great customer service experience.
Kate: So, exactly the same on email. Think about educating people, think about helping people. How can you help them to make the most of the product that they've just bought from you for example? And they'll be much more likely to come back. But it's also not all about that sell, sell, sell, but by educating people and helping people, you will inadvertently be making that sale because you're giving them that fantastic customer service. So like you said, it sounds basic, but it's taking that offline, human interaction that we know works, and trying to get it into your email marketing that a lot of people just still aren't doing.
Doug: Based on that, what advice would give our listeners to just haven't or can't pull the trigger in terms of looking at their marketing mix and their allocating budget?
Kate: Absolutely. Just I think something that holds a lot of people back is that there are so many options of what you can do and so many exciting strategies that you can put in place. And I think the key is start with one thing. One by one, slowly but surely work your way through it. So start at a point when somebody subscribes. What are you sending them? Are you sending a welcome message? It just shocks me how many still aren't even sending a welcome message, let alone a welcome series and onboarding series to educate and help, and nurture, and take them through. So start at the beginning of the relationship. And what are those touchpoints? What do people need at each stage? But work through and implement one thing at a time.
Do a data audit. Have a look at, what data have we got? What data would be useful to us and are we gonna use over the next six months to really get out campaigns personalized to what people want to receive from us? And drill down on that, but start with one thing at a time. That's gonna be the biggest element that keeps you moving because just taking a step forward is a step forward. You don't have to do 10 million things all at once and have your email program perfect because trust me, even the biggest brands out there do not have their email programs perfect. And they are continuously adding new programs and trying to get more personalized. So start at the beginning, step by step and get it implemented.
Doug: That's great advice. And I think we saw a little bit of feedback in the [Influencers Only 00:31:02] Group yesterday, but some of the big brands that are struggling still with some of the information …
Kate: Oh, yes.
Doug: … Which we won't mention. Who's one guest that you think I absolutely have to have on the podcast?
Kate: That is such a hard question because certainly for me, there are so many people that I look up to in the email industry, so many people that I absolutely love to work with. If you're absolutely going to force me to give one person out of all of the amazing people that I've worked with, I would certainly recommend that you get in touch with Guy Hanson. He works for Return Path and Guy is, I've known Guy for many, many years. I first met him at the beginning of my career and we've worked together throughout very, very closely. He is an absolute inspiration. He has just agreed to write the foreword for my book so I'm very [crosstalk 00:31:58]
Doug: Oh, good for you!
Doug: How exciting!
Kate: He's the chair of the DMA Email Council here in the UK. So he's just got such a way of looking at email and thinking about it in different ways and analyzing data. He's a really great guy and I recommend that you talk to him.
Doug: Well, thank you so much. I know it's tough, that's always a tough question I give to people. I know so many good people [inaudible 00:32:22] to pick one. So now, what's the best way for people to hold of you? Where can they find you?
Kate: Yeah, great question. So obviously on the website, so e-focusmarketing.com or they can drop me an email, [email protected], or find me on all the socials. Just search for eFocus Marketing and you will find me.
Doug: Excellent! I think you're the first guest who actually gave their email address. Good for you!
Kate: We're talking about email. So I had to, right?
Doug: I know, but we've been talking about email now for about a month and no one has been brave enough to offer up their email address. So that's really good.
Kate: Anyone can email me at any time. If you just got a question that you'd like me to answer, something that we've talked about in this podcast that you'd like me to help you with, or you've got a specific question, feel free to email me. I'd love to hear from people, and it's always great just to get questions even on social media or via email because it helps me to develop the information that I'm putting out there in terms of resources. Obviously, I'm writing my book at the moment. Any feedback and information, if there are things that you'd really like to learn about, I've got my structure, but nay feedback is always to help me make sure that I really create a book that helps people to move through all of these different processes in email and navigate through to really use it intelligently.
Doug: Well, that sounds really good. So, one of the things that we'll do is that when the show notes are out, you'll be able to find all the information all about Kate, links to her company. Obviously, we can't give you her link to her book yet because it won't be out, but when she publishes the book, I promise to give her a shout-out through our social media and through our email list as well as add that to the show notes. I just want to say thanks so much. I really enjoyed the conversation. You've got a lot of energy and a lot of passion for email marketing as do I, so it was great. It was a great opportunity to speak with you today.
Kate: Definitely. Thank you so much for having me on the show. It's been really, really fun talking to you. And hopefully, we'll get to chat again soon!
Doug: Well, I'll ring you back when you launch your book.
Kate: Sounds good, I'll hold you to that!
Doug: No problem. Thanks so much.
Kate: Thanks a lot.
Email Kate – [email protected]