Four Keys from This Episode:
- If your email does not render properly, 80% of your subscribers will delete it, and then 30% of those subscribers will actually unsubscribe
- Accessibility of your email is a huge issue. There are 285 million people who are visually impaired and may have difficulty reading your email
- Cause for Awareness helps non-profits improve their marketing
Doug Morneau: Welcome back to another episode. I am super excited to have John Thies. He is the CEO and co-founder of Email on Acid, a service provider that gives email marketers a preview of how their emails are displayed in the most popular email clients and mobile devices. His career passion is helping marketers send the perfect email. John also serves as the CEO of Cause for Awareness, a recently formed not-for-profit that empowers nonprofit organizations with digital marketing resources. When he's not either on the golf course or snowboarding in the fresh Colorado powder, he resides in Denver, Colorado with his wife and son. Welcome to the show today.
John Thies: Thank you, Doug I appreciate it. Glad to be here.
Doug Morneau: Happy to have you on. Is there anything that I missed that you would like to share?
John Thies: No, I think you did a great job with that. Thank you.
Doug Morneau: We talked a little bit before we got on-air and there's a couple topic we want to cover. Obviously, we want to talk a bit about the technology and the company that you've got, and then we'll talk about some of the not-for-profits, and the accessibility that you think is an opportunity in the marketplace. Do you want to give us a thumbnail sketch of what Email on Acid, aside from a super cool name, what the technology is and how it helps people?
John Thies: Yeah, so let me just start, like we are in Colorado, but I am not on acid right now, so just to get that cleared up out of the way. What we do is, again, we show you what your email looks like on every email client, mobile device, because they all display emails different, and so … One statistic that I know marketers love to know is that if your email does not render properly, 80% of your subscribers will delete it, and then 30% of those subscribers will actually unsubscribe, which can have a big impact on your subscriber list and what you guys are doing, because if you've done it right and you've organically built that list, that can have a pretty significant impact. What we do is we'll show you what it looks like, but really kind of how we started was diving into why it displays that it does, and we have this technology where every month we'll send, I don't know, like 400 or 500 emails to every email client to see what it is that they support and they don't support from a code base.
Doug Morneau: That's cool.
John Thies: What we'll do is then with our code analysis, so if it doesn't look right or render properly, you can run that and we'll point out, “Hey, margins aren't supported in Outlook.com unless you use a capital M.” Weirdest thing, but those are the types of things that we find that we can give you insight into so that you don't pull your hair out trying to figure out why Outlook is rendering something the way that it does.
Doug Morneau: Well, and I think that a lot of smaller businesses probably don't even know that this exists, that they're likely just sending out an email. I was doing some research for a book that we're publishing coming out in the fall around email marketing, and it talked, and one of the statistics that scared me around rendering was the high number of mobile users who get your email, and if it doesn't display right they don't unsubscribe or delete it; they mark it as spam.
John Thies: Oh, wow. Yeah, [inaudible 00:03:10]
Doug Morneau: I'm thinking wow, now I'm really in the penalty box because they get annoyed that I couldn't take the time to format an email that they could look at.
John Thies: Yeah, I didn't even think about that one, but you're right. I mean there are some serious negative impacts on what can happen if it's not rendered properly, and it happens, right? We didn't know it was an issue until we kind of, it fell into our laps eight years ago, and we were like, “Oh wow, we didn't know this,” because we kept getting thrown under the bus by one of our clients. We really didn't even know it was an issue until someone told us about it, and so I get it, like it's … You wouldn't think that in this day and age that it would be this difficult to develop HTML emails, but unfortunately, that's the world that we live in.
Doug Morneau: Yeah, that and the fact that everybody's changing the rules and changing the way that they're displayed. I remember once sitting at a conference and looking at Gmail when Gmail started hiding images, and a lot of people that I knew were using full images in their email. The presenter said, “OK, so let's look at what your email looks like in Gmail,” and they put it up on the screen, and of course the image was hidden, so the little red “X”, and then right below it said “Unsubscribe.” Basically, if they didn't approve loading images, the only thing they got from you was an option to unsubscribe.
John Thies: You know what too, like what happens with that? The same type of thing, what you're talking about, is that I've seen that wherein the pre-header text if you're using an all base image design but you don't put a pre-header text in there, it will say, “Do you want to unsubscribe?” right from the pre-header text before you even open the email.
Doug Morneau: Nice.
John Thies: Actually it's kind of funny that you say that, because on some of the presentations that I give I talk about pre-header text, and that's one of the examples is that a company a couple of years ago, Beach Riot, sent out an email and that's what they had; it had the copyright and it said, “If you don't want this email, unsubscribe.”
Doug Morneau: Wow.
John Thies: So I think it's kind of funny that you say that.
Doug Morneau: Did they have a good conversion on that?
John Thies: I don't know and hopefully none of your listeners are from Beach Riot. If they are, I apologize, but that's one that just like I have to share, so.
Doug Morneau: Yeah. Hey, we all make mistakes, right? I mean that's just the way it goes.
John Thies: We've all done it with email and that's what's funny is like there's so much involved with it that it's really hard to … Those things slip by that could have been improved.
Doug Morneau: Absolutely. Let's assume that we've done a good job, and our emails render right, and they look nice on all the various email platforms and all of the different devices. How else can you help us with what you guys do?
John Thies: Another thing that we do is we have spam checks, so [inaudible 00:06:03] and spam filter check so you can see hey, if I send this email, what will happen to it on a high-level basis? Now, obviously there's a lot that goes into the deliverability as far as IP reputation, and engagement, and all of that stuff, but we give you kind of that high-level content-wise, like will the content trigger any flags? That's one piece.
Another one is kind of like on the post inside we'll … We have an analytics platform, so we'll show you the opens, clicks, the geolocation, all of that stuff, but we go kind of farther than what ESPs do in the fact that we can actually track engagement through our analytics. We can tell you how long someone's viewing an email, and we can show you a heat map about where they're engaging with that email as well based on the links and stuff like that. What it really helps you kind of identify is how or well are we doing with our marketing programs over time? You can look at three, or four, or five email campaigns and say, “Hey, is our engagement going up or is it going down?”
Doug Morneau: Yeah. That's cool.
John Thies: Then you can kind of classify that too, whether it's a transactional amount obviously you're not going to have super high engagement, but if it's a newsletter where you have a lot of content, well you're hoping that you're going to probably have a lot of engagement with that, and so how are we doing? Are we providing relevant content?
Doug Morneau: Yeah, absolutely. I mean it's great to see that technology's kind of caught up. I mean years ago we were running very large campaigns for clients where we would rent third-party lists. We'd never see the list, the list owner maintains the list, so maybe it's like the Washington Post and they send it out to 400,000 people. We actually, because the technology wasn't there, we would include images throughout the entire email. Then we would just go look at the raw weblogs to see which images were pulled, and from there we could make an assessment of how deep people read these emails.
John Thies: Interesting. That's really interesting because, well, would they all load though? No matter how far they scrolled?
Doug Morneau: Well, they would load, but I mean these guys were writing 16 and 20-page long copy emails.
John Thies: Oh, wow. OK.
Doug Morneau: They were huge emails, and we could say, “Hey, you know what, only a third of the images are loading, people are clicking away. You can definitely, you know, reduce your copywriting bill and reduce a lot of your content,” so.
John Thies: Oh, I see how you're … OK, I get it. I see how you're doing that. No, and that's interesting, right? I think that's really like a really creative idea, so good job on that. I would never have thought about that.
Doug Morneau: Well, and given the lack of tools back then, it's like OK, we need to figure out something. We need to look and see what was available, what could we do?
John Thies: Yeah. No, it's very creative, so nice work on that one.
Doug Morneau: In terms of assumption, so I'm a small business owner or whatever the case may be, and I'm using an email service provider. I'm not going to name any because there are so many that are good products out there; I use three or four myself, for my clients as well. What's the biggest assumption that you think the end user is making when they send out an email?
John Thies: That's a good question. Well, I think there's two. One is that they assume that if they're using the WYSIWYG inside the ESP that it will render properly. I think that's one.
Doug Morneau: Yeah, that's what I was thinking, yeah.
John Thies: And I think the other one too, and this is kind of really isn't the scope of what we do, but more just thinking about ESPs and stuff like that, is that they're in charge of my deliverability. I think there's this misconception where marketers say, “Hey, I'm going to use ESP X and they need to manage my inbox placement,” and I think that's true to a certain extent, but I think most of the deliverability issues can be resolved by a marketer following the best practices of inbox placement, and they have that under their control. Now, yeah there is some stuff from the ESP, like if someone's spamming and then they're using the same IP, yeah that can have a negative impact.
Doug Morneau: Sure.
John Thies: But I think the majority of it comes down to the marketer and what they're doing to maintain their list.
Doug Morneau: Yup, I think so. I agree, like sending relevant engaging content that adds value to people's lives, getting rid of the dead emails that people aren't opening or clicking through, yeah.
John Thies: Yeah, I think that engagement one is the biggest one, and I think that people always think, “Oh, well, I need a bigger list to be better, to like broaden my, like to get my message out there,” but what's happening now, and I don't know if you know this, Doug, but like www.Outlook.com and Gmail now, they're starting to track engagement now about how people are engaging with their email throughout your list.
Doug Morneau: Sure, yeah I do, yeah.
John Thies: So when people hear that they're like, OK, and so we'll drop them out like if they're not opening their email after two, put them into another list and then try to re-engage with them, and don't …
Doug Morneau: Yeah, and that's what we've recommended for sure. I wasn't sure … I had heard that, so we were doing some testing for our client on that around engagement in terms of, and what we considered engagement for the email. I don't know if this is what you were referring to, is were opened, how many links they clicked on the email, how much time they spent on the email, and did they reply or forward it.
John Thies: Yup, that's exactly it. That's exactly it.
Doug Morneau: OK, so we were testing all of those things to try to improve engagement for someone whose engagement was suffering, and the biggest thing we could do is segment the list and send to all the openers first, and that made a huge difference.
John Thies: Oh, it does, and if you think about it too, is like if you're paying an ESP, because most ESPs charge you based on how many people you have on your list.
Doug Morneau: Yeah.
John Thies: So my biggest argument is why pay for someone when they're not even opening it?
Doug Morneau: Well, because when we're at the bar I can tell you how big my list is, and if my list is bigger than yours then I must win.
John Thies: Yeah, then it's better, right?
Doug Morneau: Yeah. No, I mean we had one client where we were sending out … We would do a blast for them, and it was a blast because it was paid for advertising, and he said … He had a decent budget; we were spending between $75,000 to $100,000 a week, and he said, “You know, I don't really care how many emails you send out. Really all I care about is how many people buy stuff.”
John Thies: Yup.
Doug Morneau: Which comes back to your point. It doesn't matter how big your list is. If you've got a million people on your list and a thousand are opening, you have a problem.
John Thies: Yeah, and I would rather have like if you talk about that, I would rather have 1,000 fully engaged subscribers on my list than having 30,000 that don't care.
Doug Morneau: Yeah. That's right; they're indifferent to your brand.
John Thies: Yeah, right? I mean they're not going to buy … I mean and there's this whole thing about top of mind, which there are people in the industry that's saying send more emails, but I don't know. I don't know if I really agree with that assessment.
Doug Morneau: I think it depends, I guess, on what your message is, and my question always is when I get up and I check my email, am I excited to get your email or am I going, “Oh, there's another whatever.” I get a lot of emails, I'm sure you do as well, and there are some brands that I love; it's like, “Oh, cool, the email's here,” and I want to immediately just grab a cup of coffee, sit down, and read it. Then there are others that it's like, “Yeah, you know I should really unsubscribe from that. I'm tired of getting their ads.”
John Thies: Yeah, and I think that's a great point because that's what I think marketers should strive to do is to strive to create that relevancy and that engaging content where people love to see your email, versus just sending email to send it. We use a phrase here where we talk about being relentless about your relevancy because the fact is that's what we want. I don't want people to be like, “Oh, great, another email from Email on Acid.” I want people to say, “Wow, great. What do they have to tell me today?”
Doug Morneau: That's a great phrase. I love that. Be relentless with your relevancy.
John Thies: Yup.
Doug Morneau: OK, so let's shift gears a little bit. We talked a little bit before we got going here, and so I'd like you to share with us a little bit more about the accessibility discussion that we started.
John Thies: Yeah, so what I'm really trying to push for, and same with Email on Acid is to really get people to think about accessibility within your email campaigns, and kind of the definition of accessibility is making sure that someone with a disability or those that are using assistive technologies, so like kind of the eye tracking things or the puff and blow technologies don't miss out on key information when viewing your webpage, your landing page, or your emails. I think that's something that is definitely overlooked when marketers, like we just don't think about it.
Again, marketers love statistics, so I have some statistics here for you that I want to kind of talk about, and that is the World Health Organization estimates that there are about 285 million people out there that have a visual impairment. That could be low vision, color blindness, blind, all of that stuff. To put that in perspective, there are 325 million people in the United States, so it's big; it's huge.
Doug Morneau: Yeah.
John Thies: And if that doesn't kind of blow a little wind up your skirt, people with disabilities represent $1 trillion in disposable income.
Doug Morneau: Yeah, so if that is an entrepreneur-free enterprise that doesn't say, “Hey, here is an audience that is being underserved.”
John Thies: There you go. We were talking about this earlier like we have this whole … Another thing in our product, we have a thing called Inspiration where we go and we collect all, like thousands of email, like we subscribe to companies and us kind of … We take a screenshot and we have like this massive library of emails for people to look at and say, “Oh, I like that design,” or, “I don't.” What we did is we actually keep the code of that, we keep the headers, all this stuff. We did a search on that and what we found is … We took a sample and we out that 0.001% of all emails being sent have accessibility things that they do within their email to be accessible.
Doug Morneau: Well, it's certainly a new topic to me, so how does one go about that?
John Thies: It's really actually pretty easy. One thing I think is just being mindful of it. Having it top of mind.
Doug Morneau: Right.
John Thies: One thing that we've talked about that I kind of educate people on is like kind of thinking about it, and one really interesting exercise that you can do is try to navigate your email experience with your weaker hand, so if you're right-handed, try using your left hand to navigate your email experience, or if you're left-handed use your right hand to try to navigate your email experience to see how difficult it is.
Doug Morneau: OK, that's cool.
John Thies: One kind of way that you can kind of think about it, and now we live in a mobile space now where I would say … I think it's over 54% of all email opens are done on a mobile device.
Doug Morneau: Yeah, that's right, yeah.
John Thies: So, it's not really thinking about how people engage with their emails, but how they engage with their devices. I don't know if anyone listening, or you, Doug, have thought about or have turned on accessibility within your iPhone or your Android device. It's actually really, really interesting. It's actually quite difficult to navigate a mobile device with accessibility turned on.
Doug Morneau: I'm going to try it when we're done interviewing. Actually, I'm going to wait until I get together with my kids who are obviously … They're early 20's so they're old enough to have their own devices, and it'll be interesting discussion around the dinner table saying, “OK, everyone turn on accessibility and let's see what it's like for the rest of the world who doesn't have fully functioning fingers and ability to move them like we do.”
John Thies: Yeah, and it's actually quite eye-opening, like the different experience that you have with it. The first thing that we try to do is get people to think about it and be mindful of it because a lot of times we don't think about it. Another example of someone that … Colorblindness, all right, the main colors that they can't see are red, blue, and green, OK?
Doug Morneau: Blue, the color of all the hyperlinks.
John Thies: Yes, that's exactly it. If you're moving that underline in your links, if you're colorblind and you can't see blue, you don't know what a link is and you don't … like you just won't see it.
Doug Morneau: Yeah.
John Thies: So that's the thing is just being kind of like cognizant of what that is.
Doug Morneau: That might affect your click-throughs.
John Thies: It absolutely will be. I mean you think about like how many people have that … Again, it's these little things that you can do to better improve. There are other things you can do on the code side. What we can do after this is, like I know in the podcast page you can have links, so we'll include links to some of these examples.
Doug Morneau: That'd be great.
John Thies: Because there's a lot of code stuff here that you can do, like for example in the HTML tag in your email, all you need to do is set the language, like language, like EN, or ES for Spanish or whatever.
Doug Morneau: Yeah.
John Thies: Because what that does, it gives that reader and that interpreter the understanding of what the language is written in, like how do I need to pronounce the words I'm talking about.
Doug Morneau: Is that something … I mean I've never thought of that. Is that something that people don't do?
John Thies: They don't, no. They might do it for a landing page or for a website, but not for an email.
Doug Morneau: Oh, wow. OK.
John Thies: And the next thing, and the same exact thing is the title tag. We all put in title tags on our webpages because we want that to be up in the tab …
Doug Morneau: Sure.
John Thies: Well, the same thing goes for email; you want to put that in. Now, it's not [inaudible 00:20:31], but what happens is the reader will start going through it and it will add context to what the email is about.
Doug Morneau: OK.
John Thies: Then, again, I have a lot of recordings, like to really exemplify this stuff, but tables. We're living in the 90s when we're talking about email because we have to use tables, and nested tables, and all of this stuff. So what happens is, with this, is that tables, like the way … The reason for tables is to show tabular content, so like an Excel spreadsheet where you have column one, row one, this value, column two …
Doug Morneau: Right.
John Thies: Right? So, all this stuff, and so what happens is when an interpreter reads it, it will go through and talk about, “Oh, I'm on a table row one, table data one, blah, blah,” and kind of read through that table structure.
Doug Morneau: Yeah.
John Thies: But if you add one attribute, it's “role=representation” or no, sorry, “role=presentation”, it will skip all that and just read the content, and it's fascinating. There's a clip that I'll give you that you can put on your webpage where it literally cuts down the time of reading one table by a third.
Doug Morneau: Wow. These sound like they're simple to implement, but just not top of mind with people.
John Thies: Exactly, and what the great thing about it is, none of this stuff has any impact on rendering, none, absolutely none. That's what we're trying to educate is saying, “Listen, like you do this upfront and you are setting the standard like you're going to do better, you're going to,” you know what I mean because you're making it more accessible. You're broadening your reach and you're limiting the complexity that someone has to go through or the things that it has to do to read your email with a screen reader.
Doug Morneau: It's interesting because I remember looking … I was doing some work with a large client. They were looking at kind of their role and their involvement in the community, and what was interesting was looking at the conversion numbers. It was a UK study of how many people would shop at a particular business if they were involved, and did not-for-profit work, and I'm looking at the change in kind of the social landscape and the expectation of companies and corporations. So, to me, this seems like a super easy win just because we should do this to be respectful of people that don't have the full vision or challenged to get access to this data to make it accessible. Beyond that, obviously, it shows that you're a good corporate citizen being respectful of all people.
John Thies: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more, and so … It's kind of funny, we kind of use a phrase, and this is kind of, I don't know, I mean it just kind of brings light, it's like, “Don't be a jerk,” to give out accessibility, and we're going to be doing some campaigns around that, like don't be a jerk campaign about accessibility, because if that … Even like with the $1 trillion of disposable income, like just do it. I mean it doesn't have any impact and it's really, really easy to do.
Doug Morneau: Yeah, that's absolutely amazing. I mean when you look at Toms Shoes when they came up with, “Buy a pair, we'll give a pair,” then everybody copied them. If you're a big corporation and you're listening to this, you could just do this and you would look good to the community, but you'd also probably make a lot more money, so.
John Thies: Well, a lot of them have to be. If you think about it too, like colleges and government they have to be ADA compliant.
Doug Morneau: Right.
John Thies: So it's going to come down to email at some point, and they're focusing on the web now, and now as email grows and grows in popularity in the return on investment and all this stuff, it's going to come so you might as well start sooner than later.
Doug Morneau: Yeah, absolutely. No time like the present to get going.
John Thies: Yup.
Doug Morneau: With the work that you do, I want to ask you a question about what you do with the digital marketing resources. What does your company do or what do you do in terms of helping the not-for-profits?
John Thies: Yeah, so this is a … You're talking about Cause for Awareness, right?
Doug Morneau: Yes.
John Thies: OK, so this is kind of a side project that my wife and I started. What we want to do is every year, well, three times a year at EOA we go out and we do community outreach, so as a whole company we'll go out, we'll donate our time to nonprofits, and kind of a team building but also giving back to the community. There was one that we did last year where I was kind of …
Before we were driving over, I was thinking about OK, how could EOA or how can I help these nonprofits, and EOA is really kind of in a niche market, right, where it's like rendering, OK, that's great, it's not actually doing sends and all of this stuff. It's important, but it's a niche, and what I started thinking about was like wow, OK, I've developed some really good relationships over the past eight years. What if we created something where marketers and stuff could come and help other nonprofits with their digital marketing because there are a couple things. There's a stigma within our culture about how nonprofits need to spend more money towards the cause than versus the overhead.
Doug Morneau: Right, yeah.
John Thies: And they look at marketing, like there was this big thing with Irma and all this stuff about Red Cross not spending enough towards the cause, and I get it, but the other hand too is they need to be able to make money, like they need to be able to make money, and the more money they can make the more things that they can do towards their cause. So something that's definitely neglected is obviously marketing, email marketing. This could be … Cause for Awareness is not really just for email marketing; it's for social, SEO, anything digital to help a nonprofit build awareness. That's why we called it Cause for Awareness, so creating something to help other people build awareness towards their nonprofit.
These nonprofits that we go to to help, they're struggling. They don't have the resources to do it, and they don't understand the need for it, or they can't, or they feel like they can't put more money towards it. So if we can create an organization that goes in and gives … It's a community-based organization where we go in and we say, “Hey, who wants to help this nonprofit revamp their digital marketing platform?” Then we go and we get volunteers, and we go and we do upfront research, like analyzing where they're at, talk to them where they want to be, help them set strategies, and goals, and help them implement stuff, and then after the fact kind of see how they're doing.
Doug Morneau: That's cool.
John Thies: And the great thing about that is like for you or me, it's like us, we get that thing of like hey, I did something good. Now, those corporations who might donate products or ESP who donates their services, we'll build a case study and say, “Hey, this is where they were, this is what we did, and this is what they're doing now.” It's kind of multiple things to help them with their cause, and to also kind of help, society says, “Hey if they do invest a little bit in this, it's not a bad thing because here's what they can generate. Here's what you can do with it.”
Doug Morneau: That's a really cool idea. I mean we've done … I think I mentioned to you as we were chatting before as well, we've done that where we've donated web services, and email services, and logos, and I used to … I went to the DMA every event they had for years and years, and there was a local not-for-profit out our way that I would just go visit. I would just send them a note and say, “Hey, I've been away five days at this conference,” and they would call all their marketing people and their board, and their different offices in Florida, and all around the world, and I'd sit down and spend half a day and just kind of go through the highlights, because we know that they're not going to send someone to the DMA to listen to the speakers and get the what's new in the marketing world.
John Thies: Yeah, because they don't have time. That could be. The resources are stretched thin, and if we can go in and help them, I think there's a big need. I don't want to compete with nonprofits. I want to help nonprofits, and so that's why I think this is kind of a win-win for those people involved, and those vendors, and those companies involved, and eventually I want to have here in Denver a free conference just for nonprofits all about digital marketing, and if you're in a nonprofit you can come for free and learn about best practice, learn about the little things that you can do, and have people from other nonprofits, maybe DonorsChoose, or the Red Cross to talk about what they do to help create awareness and get the donations and stuff like that, so.
Doug Morneau: Well, and sometimes provide training. I know we've done some stuff politically as well where we'd go in and we'd get a group of volunteers, and we would give them training, so now they had a new skill, they could help out. It was money that didn't have to be spent because now they were gifted services by volunteers that were passionate about a particular cause or direction that they were going.
John Thies: Yeah, absolutely.
Doug Morneau: You've shared a lot of stuff with us today on a number of topics. We don't normally break it up into three different sections, but talking to you before I thought what you guys were doing was really cool. I think like you said, you're in a niche; you have a niche product, and you're not a sender, but if you send and people can't see it then it doesn't matter.
John Thies: That's right.
Doug Morneau: And if they get it and they don't open it, or click, or engage then that doesn't matter either; you're just wasting resources. I think you should be happy with what you guys are doing. Obviously, you're doing a good job and it gives you a chance to get back out in the community and build that up as well. A couple questions and then we'll let you get back to your day. Where's the best place for people to find you? If they want to reach out and they want to learn more about Email on Acid, I'm assuming www.EmailonAcid.com is the place to start?
John Thies: Yeah, EmailonAcid.com definitely the place to start. For Cause for Awareness, this is CauseforAwareness.org. Then for me, I'm on Twitter, @johnethies, and then LinkedIn you can always find me there as well.
Doug Morneau: I love talking to people who have been in the business world for a while because they're still on Twitter.
John Thies: That's right. You kind of have to be these days. I'm not fully. I'm not as active as I should be, but I try to. I have to make a concerted effort to do that.
Doug Morneau: Well, a lot of small business that I know, and they go, “Twitter? Nobody is on Twitter. Everyone's on Instagram,” and I'm thinking man, the real business guys are on Twitter.
John Thies: Yeah.
Doug Morneau: What about the work that you're doing around awareness? Now, is there a website for that or are these just resources you're going to be able to provide for us to put up on our show notes for our listeners?
John Thies: What do you mean by that?
Doug Morneau: Well, you talked about the awareness. Is there an actual organization where we can go learn?
John Thies: Yeah, so Cause for Awareness is just www.CauseforAwareness.org.
Doug Morneau: Right.
John Thies: Then for the accessibility stuff we'll give you something in the show notes, a couple of links, where you guys can go and listen to a webinar that we had a couple of weeks ago, and we'll start from there.
Doug Morneau: That'd be really cool. Hey, I really thank you for taking time and sharing a bit about how you help out the art community, and how you're helping marketers get their emails delivered rendered, and hopefully doing a better job of what they do. Thanks for your time. Great to have you on the show and I look forward to getting your show notes up and sharing those with our listeners.
John Thies: Awesome. Thank you, Doug, I'm honored to be a part of it. Thank you, I appreciate it.
John on Twitter – @johnethies