Step into the fast-paced world of ‘Real Marketing Real Fast’ with me, Doug Morneau. Each episode is a power-packed journey through the twists and turns of digital marketing and website acquisition. Expect unfiltered insights, expert interviews, and a healthy dose of sarcasm. This isn’t just another marketing podcast; it’s your front-row seat to the strategies shaping the digital landscape.


Tips on how to use webinars to improve sales with Todd Earwood

  • As marketers, we need to listen to our sales and customer service people. They have front-line information that is golden!
  • Webinars marry marketing and sales the best of anything we’ve done personally.
  • People will do more to avoid pain than they will to pursue gain.
  • Sometimes people are ready to buy, but you’re putting so many barriers in that path to purchase. We try to really focus on what is the straightest line from the top to the bottom of the purchase.
  • I would rather create a process that gives me 14 great leads than 400 unknown quality leads 
  • For webinars, we somehow think people are magically going to talk the entire time and keep that interest. So we’ve gone to a model with webinars where there’s an MC like you would be introducing you the speaker on stage at a conference.
  • The number one the thing we do is we create only private webinars.

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Webinars marry marketing and sales the best of anything we’ve done personally.

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Doug Morneau: Well, welcome back listeners to another episode of Real Marketing Real Fast. And today we’re going to spend a lot of time talking about real marketing and real marketing that generates profits and sales. Our guest is going to tell you why profits triumph all, and that once you drive profits and sales, then it’s okay to go look at those shiny objects and consider other things. But until you’ve got the profits, just focus on that first. So our guest is Todd Earwood. He is the founder and the CEO of a company called MoneyPath. He and his team work together with companies to help them build sales growth and provide technology solutions for their clients.

Todd believes that the best use of his team and the marketing they can do is using webinars, and they use these as powerful sales tools that will engage customers for years to come. He’s helped his clients do that through Webinar Works, his training program for building effective webinars. He’s here to share his perspective on marketing, arguing that true marketing is much more than social media or superficial branding guides and that we should get back to the basics, ROI focused marketing to drive sales. So pull up a chair, grab your pen and your notebook, you’re ready to take some notes, learn about driving profit ROI with Todd. So, Todd, I’d like to welcome you to the Real Marketing Real Fast podcast today.

Todd Earwood: Doug, it’s great to be with you, man. I really appreciate it. Hope we’re going to have some fun today.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, I absolutely loved our pre-episode conversation in that we both have a burning desire for sales and marketing and moving the dial, and not necessarily designing pretty things but putting money in the bank for our clients.

Todd Earwood: I think that’s the key man, I think people who want marketing to perform and the true modern marketer is thinking more about the science and less about the art, and it’s a nice blend when you can bring those together. But I believe that profits triumph all.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, you can hide a lot of stuff if you got money pouring in the door.

Todd Earwood: Right. Look, I love testing new campaigns and new marketing methods and you get to do all those things after your drive the profits, not before.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, absolutely.

Todd Earwood: It’s funny what clients will let you do once you prove you can add value to the business.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, the checkbook’s just a little bit freer.

Todd Earwood: It’s fun, it’s a lot of fun when you get to that point.

Doug Morneau: So let’s dive into your superpower which really is designing marketing campaigns to drive sales and I’m sure our listeners have all tried marketing campaigns and they’ve had some that are successful, and some that aren’t. So why don’t you share with us what do you do to make it work?

Todd Earwood: Yeah. The brief background is that I come from building software companies. And so we built a legion tool, I guess almost 11 years ago and sold that to HubSpot and really got heavy into the tech side of things. Even though I have a degree in marketing, I just was always drawn to the technical side. And then we built two different marketing platforms before that, or after that, rather. So after that last software company, I had investors, and one of the guys sat me down and said, “What are you going to do next?” And I said, “Well, I’m naturally going to go build software. I don’t even understand the question.” And he said, “No, man, the great thing about you is that wacky sales and marketing stuff, you bring those things together, and I’ve been investing in companies that can’t do that, they’re great at building a product or a service, but they’re not good at that. Can you just try to do that instead?”

And I was frankly offended because I envisioned myself as this software product guy. And luckily I listened to him and he gave me a client literally said, “Here, you should start your business by doing this, take the company I invested in.” And we’ve taken them from $4,000,000 to this year will be $28,000,000 in five years. And so that gave me more confidence if you can believe in the product. At the time I had no relationship with this product, Doug. So I thought, “Man, if I can market this product, it was a breast pump, and I was a single guy at the time, who’s 38 years old, never seen a physical breast pump, and of course, never used one. And so I was able to help that breast pump company expand their digital channel because they had offline channels that they’d developed, but they’d never gone directly to the consumer.

And that gave me the confidence to keep building and trying more and more businesses, and sure enough, I’m pretty good at it. But I think it’s because your original question is, I think it’s because if you have the goal in mind of a new campaign, and the goal is going to either strategically think about the stage or funnel you’re going to target that you want to expand or accelerate. Either way, we go into every campaign thinking how’s this going to help the business, I don’t necessarily need to have all the right marketing pieces in place with the perfect website, right? And the best visuals, I’ve never created a printable item in my life that’s just not my game, from a design perspective. So yeah, I think it’s always coming into those campaigns from the very beginning with the intent to affect the sales funnel and the top of the funnel for marketing driving leads, but we got to think about the bottom so that business gets boosted.

Doug Morneau: Yeah absolutely. I mean, if you’re putting the wrong people in the top you’re not going to get the results of the back end that you want.

Todd Earwood: That’s it, man. I think a lot of people when we’re thinking about personas or avatars, we don’t focus heavily on what the sales folks think or what the customer service folks will tell you because they’re the ones that actually interact with the front line and sometimes as marketers we get too distant from that, and we think about, “Oh, market research.” And all that but we’re not thinking, the frontline people have all that gold, they know all those pieces that we need to help market the product better. And so I think that actually, the very first campaign we put everybody through is, we go through a very in-depth marketing and sales persona development process not marketing. It’s always marketing and sales, and getting those frontline people it’s pretty interesting to see what they say, and the marketers always invariably get shocked by hearing what the salespeople have said about who the right customers are.

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Webinars marry marketing and sales the best of anything we’ve done personally.

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Doug Morneau: Well, you’re right. Because there’s often a disconnect and you find sales and marketing in silos pointing fingers at each other, sales are saying, “Hey marketing’s sending us crappy leads.” And marketing saying, “Hey, sales can’t close business.” Because like you said, they’re not sitting at the table having this conversation saying, “What are the objections? What’s the pushback? Where else are they buying? What are they asking for?”

Todd Earwood: No, that’s right. I again, I don’t want to disparage marketers or marketing because I am one myself, I’ve just focused heavily my marketing efforts back on the superpower thought is I have been forced to by creating a software company, typically all successful software companies are good at content marketing and they probably gravitate to the HubSpot methodology of inbound, but they’re also handing off leads to humans and the software time, unless it’s B to C but that’s pretty rare, and it wasn’t in my case. So I came from that perspective I have to get really good at this, and I have to be watching my numbers constantly, and so it became this big math problem to solve obviously there’s qualitative data I had to look at too, but for us it became we were a high velocity, high volume funnel that was generating thousands of leads a month, and we were making thousands of outbound calls and hundreds of demos.

So I just came from that world where that’s what marketing should be and my clients gravitate towards that model. There’s a lot of people to do other great things. Having looked at your background too, you’ve done a lot of things. But IP targeting is not the number one thing I do, but I have a guy that if you’re interested in that, I’ll send you to Daryl. Daryl is great at IP targeting and it’s just not my focus, right?

Doug Morneau: Sure, yeah.

Todd Earwood: I try to stay hard in our lane and be great at the campaigns we can be great at, because as marketers we also sometimes almost all the time get asked by clients, “Well, what about Snapchat? I heard they’re selling filters now, can we get one of those filters?”

Doug Morneau: Yeah.

Todd Earwood: I don’t know we’ve been talking about growing your funnel and I don’t know where … But they hear these things, there are so many shiny objects in marketing. I think you have to stay in your lane and we’re trying very hard not to get sucked into other lanes.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, and I think some of that becomes more clear when you look at your avatar. Is your avatar on Snapchat? So it’s great to be on Snapchat if that’s where your customers are. But I think lots of times people like you said, look at the shiny object, they go to a seminar, a webinar they go to the DMA and they hear all these great things and come back with a big long list for their marketing team say, “Hey, I heard all these cool things. We should do this.”

Todd Earwood: Yeah, it’s funny when executives, especially non-marketing executives, I think are prone to this. They will hear, they’ll read that article, they’ll come back from a conference and have heard something, they’ll go, “Hey, why aren’t we doing … ” [inaudible 00:09:28] think they just heard of, right?

Doug Morneau: Yeah.

Todd Earwood: Sometimes it’s already outdated when they’ve heard of it. Sometimes it’s so new and unproven. And to your point, that’s a great idea. I can go research that for you. But our data shows, or our research shows that your target customer isn’t even there.

Doug Morneau: Yeah.

Todd Earwood: That’s not what they use. And so I think focusing on that and from our perspective, heavily targeting campaigns that marry marketing and sales together is a very sticky profitable venture, and if you can keep those marketing campaigns and we have several that we focus on, but the biggest of those is webinars is those are the ones, webinars are the ones now that marry marketing and sales the best of anything we’ve done personally.

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Webinars marry marketing and sales the best of anything we’ve done personally.

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Doug Morneau: So then why don’t you walk us through the process. So for our listeners that are going, “Okay, that sounds great. That makes sense. I should focus, but really I had these other 50 things I’d still like to do.” Why don’t we get back to the core that will actually pay the bills for the for company, so if they want to diversify and try they can, and just look at the name of your company which is MoneyPath which sounds like a good thing to do, is follow the money and that’s what I tell people, I get as close as I can to the people who write the big cheques.

Todd Earwood: That’s awesome.

Doug Morneau: So starts with lead capture, so you capture leads. So why don’t you walk us through that process and how you would integrate your sales funnel and your lead magnets and nurturing and webinars, and all that good stuff that you guys prepare and build.

Todd Earwood: I think the core there is, again establish the right targets. Go hard on persona development immediately marry the salespeople into the process. You’ve got to bring them in. It can’t be just a customer interview process, because sometimes we, guess what clients give us, they give us their very best clients to talk to, or you’re sending out a survey. So I think it’s important number one, get those sales people involved, after you get the persona, now we’re talking about, “Let’s break down those pains.” We focus heavily on the pain. So if we’re doing content development, if we’re doing lead magnet or webinars, we focus heavily on avoiding pain.

What are the pain points that those targets have? And then what content do I need to create around those pain points? And now we’re thinking about the top of the funnel, right? but it will extend down to every stage of the funnel if you focus on the pain, I mean, I’m heavy in the sales psychology side, so it’s a matter of people will do more to avoid pain than they will to pursue gain. “Just don’t take $20 away from me, I’ll work hard to not lose $20 before I’ll work really hard.”

Conceptually they think, “I have to work so much harder to gain $20, just don’t take my money.” So I think that’s where we’re focusing. MoneyPath, the name really focuses on how we clear the path to purchase, because a lot of times we put so many barriers when a consumer or even a business is going down the funnel, we put too many stops, and certain times if you think about the grocery store, Doug, when we go the grocery store, do you go to the longest line or the shortest line?

Doug Morneau: Sure.

Todd Earwood: We all got to take the shortest line, but as marketers, we go, “Oh, but you haven’t gone through this yet, and then you need to do this and your lead score wasn’t triggered.” And sometimes people are ready to buy, but you’re putting so many barriers in that path to purchase that we try to really focus on what is the straightest line from the top to the bottom of the purchase, and how do we let those who are ready to immediately go buy or buy faster and accelerate the funnel, and we do that today more than not while the campaign we’re choosing is webinars.

Doug Morneau: Okay, so how are you using webinars and to drive? I’m obviously a huge fan of webinars, I spend lots of time learning and I bought lots of products and services after webinars. So identify the pain point, produce the content I guess that will solve their problem or eliminate their pain or make them more beautiful faster, whatever it is people are trying to achieve.

Todd Earwood: Sure, right. I think the webinar difference for me and when we started doing this several years ago is that webinars obviously like you said, they’re not new. What I’ve tried to do now is, how do you take that sales psychology and optimize the campaign again to drive leads? And a few core things we’re doing that are a little bit different, that seemed to have worked more times than not for people are, we go heavy on avoiding the pain, of course, get that hook, right? Top five ways to avoid these mistakes. And the second thing is we go narrow. So don’t do like, Well, I’d love to have all these people. I would rather create a process that gives me 14 great leads than 400 unknown quality leads if that makes sense. Yeah. So our topics and our hooks that we build are on narrow focuses, narrow pain points for a specific persona, not all the personas.

So I want that hook to repel people away. And then once I get there, we’ve come up with, just like today, Doug, you introduced me, you read my bio, I think the same thing is true for webinars. I am the son of a minister and if you believe in church or not, you can understand the analogy that imagines if my dad greeted you at the door, and then he went up and made announcements and then he sang a song, and then he prayed, and then he preached, and then he asked for money. And then he asked for you to come to the altar, you would get bored of having one person talk the whole time. But at webinars, we somehow think people are magically going to talk the entire time and keep that interest. So we’ve immediately gone to more of the model with webinars where there’s an MC like you would be introducing you Doug on stage at a conference.

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Webinars marry marketing and sales the best of anything we’ve done personally.

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Doug Morneau: Okay.

Todd Earwood: And you’re the thought leader. Thought leaders don’t introduce themselves. No, they don’t. And they don’t make all the announcements-

Doug Morneau: They don’t sell at the back of the room either.

Todd Earwood: Right.

Doug Morneau: Yeah.

Todd Earwood: And so we have this two-person scripted process now where the MC has a job, and that person knows their job, and the thought leader can do what they do best, which is educate the target audience. In our case, that’s on how to avoid those pains, and then just getting them engaged. And so Doug, we’ve been doing this for a couple years and then HubSpot, that seems to be the tool that a lot of our customers choose. HubSpot saw what we were doing and said, “You really should productize this. Your results are so good, why aren’t you productizing the webinar process?” And I said I didn’t know that, compared to everybody else, because as marketers we don’t get to see, you read these headlines, but you don’t really always get to know the benchmark of how the performance is. And then I want to go to a webinar and they found out about it.

And so now it’s become a whole process of how do you build that hook? How do you target the person? And then how do you build that content piece with the MC and the actual thought leader working together? Creates this interesting cadence in a webinar that is not like one that most webinars are doing today. And then there are lots of tips and tricks, I can imagine that some people are missing Doug in the process of creating the webinar, again, if you’re talking, you’ve got to have a new voice come in and say something different and get people engaged.

Doug Morneau: Well, I think that would also take the pressure off of somebody trying to host and take questions and field and do everything as you said all by themselves. Like the analogy of your dad trying to be the janitor, and greet people, and preach and do all that stuff, be overwhelming. And like you said, “It doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t set you up to look professional to do that.” So can we back up a bit and talk about your process from beginning to end. So I mean, the first thing I think of when you’re saying do a webinar and the MC. I think I said, I’d really like the concept, but it’s like, “Okay, so we’ve got our avatar, we’ve got the pain points.” How do we get them into the funnel or into a process so they’ll communicate with us and then how do we get them to the webinar?

Todd Earwood: Yeah, I think there are two pieces there, Doug. Number one the thing we do is we create only private webinars. So I make this exclusive, I don’t promote it on social, my whole idea is I’m targeting you, and I want you to feel special. So when I go to invite, I’m relying heavily on email. So this really works well with people who have an email list, cold, warm, hot, otherwise, that’s fine. We have different strategies for the temperature of that lead.

Doug Morneau: Yeah.

Todd Earwood: But the idea is we’re going to go after a specific segment, right? That persona and we’re going to go with a series of invites, and we’re going to cram them into a short period of time. And if you go to webinars data, that I’ve gone back and forth with them on, is that’s a three week process, and 15% of people will sign up in the first week, that is three weeks out from the date, but then it loads and then it comes back at the end, is probably not surprising the marketer, the last minute folks come rolling in, right? But the email has to be now if you’re thinking about copy and strategy there, the email copy has to be about I’m inviting you because I believe if you’ve experienced these things you’re going to want to learn about this topic. And I’m so happy that Doug is our speaker, and here’s Doug’s background that can speak to this specific topic. Right? Thought Leader.

Doug Morneau: Yeah.

Todd Earwood: And so the copy is really driven around, and it’s private, “I’m only inviting you, if you’re receiving this email, you’re invited, I’m not inviting your friends.” And that typically will generate way more registrations than posting to Twitter posting or what else. And I think I’ve seen clients do it with a dead email list and for re-engagement campaigns, cold email list they purchased, right?

Doug Morneau: Yeah.

Todd Earwood: And said, “Hey, if you have this target.” I mean, I’m such a lover of email, I can’t even hide it. I just love email. I still think anybody that talks about, “Oh, messenger bots have a better open rate and click rate.” Man, I love messenger bots too, but they don’t beat email.

Doug Morneau: Well, and they work really well until Facebook shuts off your account.

Todd Earwood: That’s correct. Or they start charging you I mean I think another thing that they could do is they’re going to start charging you for … I mean, I look at Facebook Messenger specifically, it’s just another inbox, and at some point, they’ve proven they’ll change the algorithm or they’ll change the monetary game for you to access the customers.

Doug Morneau: Sure, yeah.

Todd Earwood: So email if you own that list, man, it’s hard to beat out owning that list. And if you don’t own that list, as I know that you know, Doug, there are ways to go buy build list and that should be really the bloodline for your funnel, is email for many businesses.

Doug Morneau: Oh, and you can move people. We rent a lot of data, so we’ll go to well known big brand publishers that have a large list, maybe a couple hundred thousand or maybe even up to a million names, and we’ll rent that data. And then the goal is to convert them, so get them into your funnel, get their email list, they sign up to your list, and then for the listeners that are going, “Yeah, but I like my social channel.” Then fine, when you start engaging with them, you can tell them about social, so you can touch them on many points. But at the end of the day, you still own the most important thing, which is a way that you can directly contact them without any interference.

Todd Earwood: I love the rental model, and you’re well experienced in that, and if you’re not experienced in it, it can really be powerful. I think that buying the list is a different game, but if you’re renting or buying if you know what you’re doing with that, it is an incredible model. We have a client and that who’s VP of Marketing is really excellent at buying that list and finding the right audience, but he funnels them to our webinars and he says, an early thing to do is to educate early not sell early. So he likes this hook of avoiding pain, and then if we get them at the top of the webinar, if you go back to accelerating the funnel, and thinking about the stages.

Again, salespeople will always follow up with a webinar lead and as marketers, it can get frustrating to hear salespeople saying, “Well, these are trash leads, these aren’t good leads. I don’t believe they even done this. And I’ve talked to two people, and they weren’t very accurate, or they weren’t very interested in our product.” But the reality is a lot of channels, and I don’t want to pick on social media, but a lot of channels don’t show the highest level of intent. But if you’re engaging with our content on email, and you are willing to sit through a 30 to 60 Minute Webinar, I think any of us as business people would like to have 30 to 60 minutes in front of a prospect.

Doug Morneau: Absolutely, yeah. My brother-in-law owns a retail store, and he said to his staff one day, he said, “Hey, see that mom and dad that just left with all their kids?” “Yeah.” “Why didn’t they buy a bike from us?” “Oh, they were just shopping.” He said, “They weren’t shopping. You don’t come out on a rainy day with young kids to a bike store to shop.’

Todd Earwood: That’s right.

Doug Morneau: They came in to buy because they would have rather stayed at home and come out when the weather was nice. So they were qualified.

Todd Earwood: That’s it. I know a person that I really just socially and personally. But he sold pool tables and recreational type products, hot tubs, et cetera. And he would say that if it was a couple buying, a family buying a hot tub, or a pool table, that if the female wasn’t there if the spouse wasn’t there, the transaction was not going to happen. But the trigger for him was he knew if the spouse was there, we all know that about our businesses, what are those triggers to your point about the bike? It’s raining. You don’t come shop in the rain unless you have intent.

Doug Morneau: Yeah.

Todd Earwood: And his thing was if both people come, you’re in buying mode, you might be in research mode, but if you’ve both come to a physical store to look at something and spend your time, right? Then you’re absolutely wanting to accelerate towards a purchase. There’s probably a lower chance that you’re a tire kicker, just looking around just to your example. And I think that’s what webinars do for us as marketers are it gives us that way to monitor high intent.

Doug Morneau: Oh, and I think it’s a great way to create content as well, because you can share a lot more with visual and audio, then you can just enough in flat mail or email, and engage and give your audience a chance to ask questions, or do a survey or depending on how you structure your webinar to walk people through that sales process.

Todd Earwood: That’s 100%, right. You appreciate this, Doug. I have a client that a competitor messed up and got exposed publicly on their product, had some failure points. And he was, “How do we go tell everybody.” And I was, “Man, negative marketing is a tough game. I’m not the best at this. That’s not my real favorite method to drive leads”. And he’s, “But if we could only tell them.” And he rattles off 17 bullet points. And I was, “Sure.” He’s like, “Why haven’t you posted that on social?” I was, “Well, our team doesn’t think a, we can hold the attention have 17 bullet points in the tweet and b, do you really think we’re going to be able to engage with somebody?” When you think about what format can I tell a story and keep your attention enough to not click away and go to another tab or window or site? And for a lot of channels, that’s difficult, I think email is one of them if you become really good at email, you can.

I think pushing email to landing pages for lead magnets, et cetera is great. And that’s what webinar is, for me. The webinar is just another long-form content piece that adds in the visuals you’re talking about, Doug. It also gives a lot of great ability to get to know the company. Now, the thought leader, you get to understand who that person is, and you’re hearing their voice, if you’re bold enough, maybe you turn on your video camera. But for a lot of people, they don’t need to do that, but they can at least show the visuals and to my client’s frustration point, he wanted to say 17 bullet points.

Doug Morneau: Yeah.

Todd Earwood: That’s hard to digest for a marketer to give. How do you digest that for a prospect, right? You’re going to need a different format.

Doug Morneau: So can you share a major breakthrough, or maybe give an example. So maybe you want to name your client, maybe you don’t have somebody who walks through this process where you help them to do a deep dive in their avatar, and you got their sales and marketing team together. And then you created this process where you invited people to help them solve their pain point.

Todd Earwood: I think a specific one that comes to mind, that’s been pretty recent is we’ve done this now, in 17 different industries, B2B and B2C. And one that comes to mind as recent is, there’s a company who sells, if you can believe this, analytics to football teams, American football teams, and they have last year in the Super Bowl, the Eagles used their data to make better play calling. But we narrowed them in and said, “Well, who’s the real buyer to sell to?” They wanted to sell to NCAA football teams, not just NFL.

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Webinars marry marketing and sales the best of anything we’ve done personally.

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Doug Morneau: Sure.

Todd Earwood: And so what we did was narrow down the roles and those characteristics and the pain points, and we got that personal development, and the process we took them on was, “Okay we’re going to talk about how do they avoid that pain.” And the pain for them was keeping up. How do you keep up versus your competition? Don’t get left behind, because the pain of losing more gains means you lose your job and their business. So we developed a webinar where we talked about those pain points. They had [inaudible 00:27:31] zero,  they had literally … Now, that’s not fair. Sales, they had one salesperson who’d been manually reaching out to people but they’d put no marketing efforts towards because this was a brand new market for them. And so we were able to get a list and then start marketing to them about, “Hey here’s who we are. Here’s this educational thing we have, it’s the form of a webinar.” And we took them through it and us… Now again, I think marketers can get hung up, we all love numbers, and I as much as anyone, but the quality was so high that they got seven schools to come through.

Now seven sounds like a small amount but this is a high dollar product. Seven schools came through this funnel cold as cold could be. They’d never spoken to them, they’d been trying to do email outreach before, came through the webinar and end up getting two great demos with schools that, would each be a six-figure value. From a webinar, they started from cold three weeks earlier. And the whole idea is we built these, to your point Doug, earlier we then a, focused heavily on registrations, but b, the follow-up. So then we started marketing the replay. And we’ve been marketing that replay for months.

Doug Morneau: Sure, absolutely.

Todd Earwood: It doesn’t go away. And if you get really advanced, you should be fracturing that content piece into a bunch of smaller other pieces. So now we pull out one of the key points of the webinar and that’s its own video, right? That’s its own blog post, that’s its own email. And if you take the time, this client was happy because a the lead flow was great, b, the outcome for sales was a happy outcome, but b, finally, I would say they now have this content piece, and they can keep reusing it, and really multiplying its effect on numerous other people. That’s really cool.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, I read a book and heard a speaker that you probably enjoy, Rasmus Ankersen, and he’s got a book called Hunger in Paradise. And they talked about numbers and analytics for football or soccer in Europe.

Todd Earwood: Yeah.

Doug Morneau: And a guy who is a professional Gambler, and he said, the professional gambler doesn’t mean he just Gamble’s a lot. It means he has a whole staff of math people looking at the numbers, and he said the leaderboard always lies. That’s how his boss looks at it. And the media thinks the leaderboard’s right, it’s all about analytics and prediction. And they’re doing so well, they’re actually buying teams now.

Todd Earwood: That’s wow. I mean, in American baseball, they’ve done that, the famous book was Moneyball that came out of Billy Beane, of the Oakland A’s. And I think now what this company is doing is they have a floor in their building where they’re located. They have a floor, a data scientist, and that’s all these math guys do.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, that’s right.

Todd Earwood: Is look at data and do what you’re talking about on the book, is the predictive analytics.

Doug Morneau: Yeah,

Todd Earwood: But on the flip side, we’ve done webinars for the breast pump company, and we segmented very specifically to mothers who were going back to work after having the baby, and how to best avoid the challenges of breast pumping at work, super narrow. So the stay-at-home moms did not sign up.

Doug Morneau: Yeah.

Todd Earwood: They repelled them away. And all we did was educate them. It was part advocacy of here’s what your rights are in the United States, for your employer has to adhere to. And b, here’s how to make this less troublesome. And guess what, we targeted people who had not gotten the breast pump yet, who were earlier in their pregnancy, who were thinking ahead, and it has been a great campaign and now we run it repeatedly, we keep running that as a recorded webinar, we don’t fake that it’s life, we say “Hey, we did this webinar earlier in the year, and if you’re a working mom, this is going to be great for you.” What’s a great conversion point? So that’s more of the bottom of the funnel for that client because we have other ways and social’s one of them actually to get them at the top. So it’s paid, we do a lot of paid ads for them and we get them in the top of the funnel, and if you don’t immediately by the webinar’s a great conversion point.

Doug Morneau: That’s cool. And I just wanted to touch on one point, you said you don’t fake that as life. Do you want to expand on that?

Todd Earwood: Well, look, man, I love technology that said, been building software companies. And now they’ve given us all these means people build to products where you can have automated webinars, right? And a lot of people fake it. There are even tools as most of us marketers have experienced or bumped into where you can fake that there are 158 people live, and there are 23 people asking questions, and here’s Mary from Sarasota, Florida, asking this question. And for me, I don’t understand how you want to be anything but authentic to your prospect and build a relationship with them. Because of most of us as marketers, although we want the transactions and I talk about driving profits, we’re still building a relationship, and if you start that relationship on a lie and you’re fabricating that it’s a live webinar, people will sign up for a replay.

If you market it correctly, there’s no reason to even attempt to fake something, why not just either a, make a video recording, if you’re afraid of doing a live webinar, make a recording of the perfect PowerPoint presentation, the webinar you’d be doing, right? Make that, and just promote it as, “Here’s a recording of what we taught.” Fine, don’t fake that it was life. Just say it’s a recording. But the live people and Doug, have you experienced that? I mean, I think we all have as marketers. We’ve seen these webinars where there are so many people in there and there and there is all this fake activity and that’s such a turnoff for me, and it’s something that we just won’t do for our clients.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, I know I have, absolutely. I just want to hear your point. I mean, because you’re in this space where you’re teaching people how to do this right. And my assumption is that if we start a relationship with you manipulating or lying before I give you money, it’s not going to get any better after I give you my credit card.

Todd Earwood: It won’t and especially, I’m not going to name a name, but I bought a marketing software product probably eight years ago. And this is a well-known company, I ended up going to their user’s conference later, and I ran into the person who did this webinar that I attended and I said … He had a very unique name, so I remembered it. And I said, “Oh, I was on the webinar over a holiday weekend, where you talked about your grandmother’s homemade bread.” And he was like, “Oh, yeah,” I said I was so impressed that you guys were doing a webinar on a labor day weekend. And he laughed and was, “Well, actually, I wasn’t doing it live Todd.” And I was, “But no, you said.” And then that was seven, eight years ago, and it exposed me to, he just was very honest about being dishonest, I guess. And I was like, “Man.” It left such a bad taste in my mouth, the fact that I can recite that whole conversation to you, Doug, seven years later, right?

Doug Morneau: Yeah. It’s not good.

Todd Earwood: It made an impression on me and it made me feel bad about my purchase with this company.

Doug Morneau: Yeah. I get it. Well, thanks for expounding on that. I hope listeners you’re tuning in, I mean, the days of technology, people are …  I say to my clients, “People are smart.” If you don’t have a good product or service, they’re going to figure it out as soon as they buy it. If you don’t have a good online reputation, they’re going to figure out in 30 seconds when they search online. So just like he said, just be upfront, and let people know where you’re at, and where you’re coming from.

Todd Earwood: I think that’s it. I believe if you … We never need to be dishonest as marketers, we don’t have to manipulate to sell. And a lot of people think selling can be skeezy and whatever, and those people absolutely exist. But the great salespeople don’t have to do that, the great brands don’t have to promote manipulation to get people to buy. And as marketers, I believe a lot of us still believe in the idea that if we educate our prospects, and show the differentiators of our product or service, we have a great chance at winning.

Webinar just gives you that chance to tell a story in 30 to 60 minutes. And most of us can do a pretty darn good job of doing that in a way that’s going to boost the funnel. And that’s why I’m so heavy on webinars. And we’ve outlined that really to the … We don’t have enough time today, but an outline that so extensively, that now it’s really a turnkey process where people can take the formula and say, “Oh, I can accelerate the content production, the marketing, the follow-up.” Right? And that’s why I think webinars are so great at marrying sales and marketing.

Doug Morneau: So do you have any secret sauce that you use in terms of the lead nurture before or after the webinar?

Todd Earwood: There’s a couple of pieces that are unique, they get on the front end, promote a private webinar, do it primarily an email, do it in private, don’t put it on your website, don’t put it in social, that will boost registrations for marketers who care so much about the quantitative side to be able to report back that we have a huge number of attendees. The second is segment heavily on the post-webinar follow-up. So after the event’s life, and you have a recording, you should always have a recording, you need to go promote the replay. And I would segment them in three ways. Number one, people who attended, people who registered but did not attend, and people who never registered.

You’re still going to market to them again and say, “Hey, I’m sure you got busy, you just probably missed this email before, you didn’t have enough time. And that’s why we’re offering this replay.” And if you start to splinter that off on the post follow up, you’ll get more value, and again, stretching that whole webinar content piece much longer than just a one-time event. Internally we call it … We actually had an intern that researched this of all people, and it was Campbell’s can of soup could last one to four years on the shelf. And so when we think about webinars, we’re building a can of soup.

We’re building something that is not a tweet that lasts 30 seconds or maybe 30 minutes, right? We’re building something that can last in value for years if you promote it correctly, and then polls are the second thing, Doug. It’s not if you really want to segment even further after the webinar, the secret sauce there is asking a poll at the end of the webinar. Because now again, high intent people are at the end.

Ask a poll that says, “What’s the next action? Now that you’ve learned how to avoid this topic. We’ve been talking about these pain points. What is your next step? Answer the poll of what is your next step after learning these things?” And that will show what the person is going to do. What is their next step if it’s to go research more, or if it’s, “I want to see a demo.” Or, “I really liked this, I learned this point.” You can give those options in a poll. And that is probably the thing that salespeople go bonkers for, is the person tells you what they’re going to do with the content you just gave them.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, that’s amazing.

Todd Earwood: And that’s ultimate segmentation. But you know this because I’ve read enough Doug, about what you’re doing, that segmentation matters. And in webinars, again, we don’t cast a wide net, we want to spend more time creating something very narrow, and the same applies to how we get people to register for the webinar live event, or the replay is, we’re going to segment them heavily. And those are the ways I’m doing it today.

Doug Morneau: So what’s the biggest myth? I understand talking about segmentation from it, because I know that often I come across people and they want to reach the biggest audience, “Hey, I can buy a fill in the blank media.” Or, “I can buy a list of 50,000,000 people for X number of dollars [inaudible 00:39:27] how many [inaudible 00:39:28] you’re going to waste to get there? So what’s the biggest myth, do you think around segmentation?

Todd Earwood: Well, I think depending upon the list source, right? Or just segmentation, in general, is that a, as marketers, sometimes it’s easier just not I mean, being frank about it, it’s just easier to not a segment, it’s easier to create one email sequence, not four.

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Webinars marry marketing and sales the best of anything we’ve done personally.

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Doug Morneau: Yeah

Todd Earwood: And so the effort is, it takes a lot more effort. So I think that’s a big piece of why I really believe marketers don’t want to spend their time doing it. And it’s a lot harder to go create four different lead magnets to segment those audiences. So I still think the effort is the number one barrier to marketers segmenting the day. But the myth is probably that it’s not worth the effort. And I would say that the data shows it almost always is, the further you’ll go down, now you need to know your targets, Doug, right? You need to know who are the really high intent people. And again, I keep talking about it, but that’s why webinars show high intent.

It’s worth creating more specific emails, and I think you’d see this even in the sales side, where people, account-based marketing and account-based selling, if you think about that, on the B2B side, you see this trend now, where people are spending more time targeting a specific customer, and they’re doing more manual research, if it’s worth enough to them to do that. In some businesses, that’s the case. But the myth that it’s not worth the effort, is the data proves that that’s not true.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, I would agree. I mean, we do a lot of different segmentation. And one of the simple things that we do is segment openers from non-openers from your house list.

Todd Earwood: Yes.

Doug Morneau: And mail the openers first. Because guess what, they opened your last campaign, they’re more likely to open the new one. So let’s do what we can to get better deliverability, more engagement by talking to the people who want to talk to us first, and then not that we’re not going to talk to people, but they’re going to get the email the next day.

Todd Earwood: That’s right. And I think good list cleaning, those that are really good at an email, know that it’s better to curate and clean out that list. And some things will do for people with the house list, especially is, if you’re not active, give you a chance to say, “Hey, at this point, I’m just going to remove you from the list. And if you’re not interested, you can unsubscribe. But if you don’t take action, or click on a link …” And just be very transparent to them, you’re not very interested in our product, and that’s totally cool. I don’t want to keep sending you emails.

Doug Morneau: Yeah.

Todd Earwood: The reality is, I would probably turn them off, I’m not going to delete the record, but I’m going to take them out of a sequence. So maybe try a re-engagement campaign months later, but I mean, you know how this is Doug, where people have, “Oh, I’ve got a big list, and I’ve got 50,000, I’ve got 500,000.” Whatever is big for that business, right? But the reality is, the active people in it are so small because they haven’t been monitoring and you haven’t been segmenting. And so the value of your list goes down because you’re not, I mean, I think that’s another reason why segmentation the benefit is, people are more active with content that’s more relevant to them, that’s not broad-based.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, that totally makes sense. I mean, I say, “It doesn’t matter how big your list is, What matters is how many people open and read your message. That’s how big your list really is.”

Todd Earwood: That’s exactly right. I think we see it too, several years ago, we did this study where we opted into the top 300 software companies, because like I said earlier, they’re heavy on content. And the number one thing that software companies promoted when we brought in these data scientists to help us analyze the data is now we’ve gone through 25,000 emails and other 25,000 emails, the number one thing that they were sending an email was about content, specifically lead magnets, and the second thing was webinars. And so that points in the direction if you’re going to take the time to create content, it was not blog posts, right? But the lowest thing, they’re essentially 14 types of emails, the software companies were to send the lowest number was something asking for a demo.

Now, there’s probably a reason why the top 300 companies know a new prospect who just got on the list, should not be pushed to the bottom of the funnel immediately. And as marketers, we need to be reminded of that, of when we go for the sale or go for the clothes or conversion point, you need to know what stage they’re in and then tailor that content appropriately.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, I like that. I mean, one of the guys I like to follow and I like some of his marketing is Frank Kern, and he talks about when he’s doing his advertising. He said, “Hey if you’re going to tell people what you can do for them, why don’t you help them while they’re on your ad to prove to them that you can add value opposed to … I got an email from someone today, and I got another guess, some direct messages on social, it was like, “Hey, I didn’t want to send you a spammy message but …” I was like, “Hang on a second, I don’t know who you are. But here, sign up for my new product.” And he was, “Yeah, okay, fine. Thank you for telling me it wasn’t spammy. You don’t know me, you don’t know my business. But you’d asked me to buy your product, and we’ve never met until two seconds ago. But thanks for [inaudible 00:44:36].”

Todd Earwood: Yeah, I think we talked today about being honest. But I don’t like the idea of saying, I don’t want to … It’s like when people say, “I don’t want this to be offensive.” But whenever you start that sentence.

Doug Morneau: Yeah.

Todd Earwood: Something bad’s gonna come after that. It’s not going to be positive, right?

Doug Morneau: Yeah, I’m very afraid, that’s right.

Todd Earwood: Whatever it is, this cannot be good. Please don’t. Whatever you’re about to say, just don’t say it, please withhold it. That’s awesome.

Doug Morneau: So for our listeners that are tuning in and saying, “Yeah, okay, I’ve heard all this stuff before, what do you think is some of the bad advice that people are giving around this whole process of using webinars and sales funnels to drive and qualify leads?

Todd Earwood: Again, don’t target broadly, they go for too many people, right? They try to get way too many people, and they’re not targeting any content. So I think that’s the number one problem. The other thing they’re doing wrong, is they’re not focusing as much on the post they focus so hard on registrations that they’re not focusing, I think you should focus arguably, more effort on after the webinar, what to do with that content, and how to follow up with the prospects because any good salesperson knows just because they didn’t say yes today, does not mean they’re going to say no forever. And so we need to follow up with them, and we need to continue to nurture those leads. So I think marketers have to get when you think about giving your effort and where you break that out, and we all focus in … Content is a struggle to create that for a lot of people, and outside of the content you’ve got to get into, “Yes, I want my registration campaign, but I really need a post-webinar follow up a campaign.” And that’s where people are not focusing enough effort.

Doug Morneau: Yeah. And I think that’s a fair comment. I mean, I’ve heard sales guys say, “The money is in the follow-up.”

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Todd Earwood: It’s true. Sometimes, whether we like it or not. It’s interesting, there’s a guy, Doug, that he called on me for 14 months and never stopped, and he was out of town, he did not live in the same city as me and he never stopped. But he said to me, “Todd, I believe you’re my perfect prospect. I really believe what I have is of value to you, and I just want to get the right time.” And he kept calling, and eventually, I was number one, I felt special, we all like to feel special.

Doug Morneau: Yeah.

Todd Earwood: And he had said, “I have something of value.” Not, “I can’t wait to get your money.” Right? So I think to follow up is key, but as marketers, we think so much about launching something, right? “We’ve got to create, and then we got to do the launch. Now we have the new ebook. Now we have the new white paper. Now, we have the new landing page.” And we focus so much on that, and then we just step back and wait for it to magically work. Well, that’s where we apply that same logic to webinars, but we have this awesome product we’ve created at the end, it’s a product being the content piece, right?

You should now focus just as much effort afterward on how do you promote that. And we do that by the things we talked about, like upload your video to Rev.com and transcribe it. Now, you’ve got a lot of content for you, it’s worth the money to not hand transcribe that. And now what can you do with that content that you’ve taken today if we did that with our interview today? The time we’re spending a day Doug, we could transcribe this and create a great blog post out of it. And there’s going to be excerpts you can pull out, and so that’s what a lot of people are doing today with our webinar formula is how do I get this and replicate that content in multiple formats after I spent so much time creating a great webinar?

Doug Morneau: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I think a lot of people in content marketing realize the value of repurposing, but for some reason, we keep creating new stuff, instead of leveraging the stuff that we actually spent a lot of time and intend to design.

Todd Earwood: Yeah. It is, where a lot of us in marketing, still focus heavily on the production side, and outside of production, we have to think about, how does this all fit in a process that humans want to take to get to learn about us, and then after I discover what you are, and I get through that consideration phase, what are you going to do to make it easy to buy? Because for those that want to go straight to the clothes, let them go, but unfortunately, as marketers, we don’t always have that case, we’ve got to nurture them, and we’ve got to segment them to get them to buy.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, that’s funny. I mean, I think that at times have been on a website looking at software or a solution and I want to buy and I don’t really want a demo, I understand the concept, I understand what the tool do. And it’s like, “Well, contact us for demos.” No, just tell me where to sign up and put my credit card in. I don’t want to talk to anybody I just want to execute.

Todd Earwood: It’s frustrating. I mean, as humans most of us would never agree to this if someone were in a store and they were trying to make it difficult to check out. It would be it would be preposterous, none of us would want to do that. But sometimes in our businesses, we have to say, “What are the barriers we’re creating?”

Doug Morneau: Yeah, that’s very [crosstalk 00:49:51].

Todd Earwood: Or do we really want to put this in the way and make them go through this? And assessing where that intent is, is so important because those who have the highest intent on a rainy day when it’s probably dark outside, and their kids with them, parents don’t want to bring their kids out in the rain and go to stores, to your example, right? Those guys are buyers.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, they’re buyers, absolutely.

Todd Earwood: They’re buyers, take their money and make it easy and say, “Thank you.”

Doug Morneau: Yeah, that’s so true. So I wanted to say thanks so much for just being so generous and sharing information with us. So what’s the best place for people to track you down Todd? Do you have a favorite social channel that people can find you and share your website as well?

Todd Earwood: I think socially I love Instagram, I’m on all platforms. But I think I love Instagram but Twitter is /MoneyPath and we’re MoneyPath across every platform. But the latest thing, if you’re interested in the webinar side, Webinar Works is the name of our product and you can go to Webinar Works across all channels. Again, Instagram is where I love spending a lot of my time, but you can go to webinar works.co/real. So anyone who’s heard this with Doug today, if you go to webinar works.co not com webinar works.co/real you can see I’ve got some things there for you where you can, if you want to get an assessment to find out where if webinars are right for you, or if webinars you’ve done previously, how to assess that, we’ve got a grading tool, and it’ll give you these direct tips of how to go correct it with the topic. Some of the items we’ve talked about today and more, so you can get all that for free. Again, as you can tell, Doug, I love talking about this stuff. I love sales and marketing.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, I get that.

Todd Earwood: I think it’s a lot of fun to be a marketer in this modern age. And although we have to avoid the shiny object syndrome, we also have a lot of tools at our disposal. And for now, I’m just trying to help people, our clients, and other people now, “Here’s the formula with Webinar Works to make it a lot easier as a marketer to reduce that friction.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, that makes sense. You’re right. There are lots of tools and lots of opportunities. So on that note, what are you most excited about in the next six to 12 months?

Todd Earwood: Man, a, I’m never gonna go away from email, right? I love the combination now of multiple inboxes. So although I made a snide remark about the bot, right? I think messenger bots if you’re authentic and don’t fake the human are really an interesting piece. If you can track that data. If you can start to merge all those data points of messaging. If someone comes to your site, drift as a tool that comes to mind, it’s against web forms. I’m not against web forms, I don’t believe in what they’re selling yet. But I do believe in the messaging aspect. And some people don’t want to get on the “email list” but they’re happy to have a live chat. And companies are willing to staff that, it’s becoming a lot easier with the tools we have today.

We have two clients today that are heavy on that, that first their resistance to that. I think we’re going to see more and more fun things there, where people are going to say, “Wow, the tool’s available to me to have conversations.” Because that’s what an email is, for me, I’m having a conversation with you. And if I can get some engagement with an open or a click, I can probably help solve your problem. So I think the other messaging piece if you’re good at email, you’re going to eventually be good at messaging and marrying all that data together on the back end to measure intent.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, that totally makes sense. And I think it’s more respectful of people’s time [inaudible 00:53:33] show intent, you can keep guiding them down the right path based on what they do, or they don’t do.

Todd Earwood: Yeah, I agree that segmentation, right? We want to do that, and the messaging tools we have today, and email I’ve already been there, I think the messenger I don’t think we need to get so worried about the word bot, because it implies fake conversations, and you can automate a lot of that, but as marketers, most of us are more than happy to do automated sequences and email. You’re going to see more and more people get comfortable on the messaging side, and it’s just another medium. Yes, if you’re not going to Facebook. As you said, Doug, that beware, because they still control that, and we don’t, unlike our email list. But I do think understanding the intent and tracking those conversations is going to be really a fun thing to see develop because the tools are going to catch up to allow us to do the things we’re already comfortable with on email.

Doug Morneau: Yeah, I agree. And we use Facebook and all the platforms as well. There are just the different restrictions for advertisers, depending on what platform you’re on.

Todd Earwood: That’s it. But let’s just go wherever our target audience is. Facebook may not even be it, right?

Doug Morneau: Yeah, right. Yeah, I mean, it’s funny. I mean, I used to think in old days, when I was doing direct mail, I used to get so excited looking into the direct mail list saying, “Here’s a list of 500,000 guys who want to improve their golf game, I should be looking for products.” So instead of a product first, and find the audience, find the audience and have someone develop a product and go sell to.

Todd Earwood: That’s it. I mean, if you get the audience and you get the list, you already have the method, right? You’ve got a method to reach people. A lot of people, you’re right, they’ll go build the perfect product, and they’ll say, “I know this is going to work.” Well, you never tested it, you haven’t gone to humans and said, “Is this really something you’d want.” And a lot of people fail because of that because they don’t validate that people want the next product or service release you have, or it’s just an underwhelming release. Right? And thinking about software or physical products, people spend so much time on the R&D to develop something, and then they go, “Okay, now, if I just build this awesome product, guess what? Everyone’s going to find out about me.” Well, no, that’s not necessarily true. And I like the idea, you’re right. If you had the list already of all the golfers that want to improve their game, I’m sure Doug, you and I, today could come up with something to help them or find somebody who had something, right?

Doug Morneau: Yeah, we get them to a webinar on how to shave three strokes off the game, and we’d be sending lots of product.

Todd Earwood: I love it.

Doug Morneau: So who’s one guest I absolutely have to have on my podcast.

Todd Earwood: Oh, wow. That’s interesting. The person I think that would be super interesting for you. I talked recently if you haven’t talked to Jason Swenk-

Doug Morneau: No, I have not.

Todd Earwood: I think Jason Swenk, the last name is S-W-E-N-K not A. And Jason help agencies, but he used to run an agency and he sold it. He was early in the digital marketing space for big brands, like at AT&T, helping them more than a decade ago. And he has done something fascinating with I won’t steal his thunder, but he got rid of his contactor’s page and just let people connect with him on a messenger bot. And he doesn’t fake it. Again, he tells you that this is not a human part, but if you click here and just respond to me, it’ll be me. And I think he has a fascinating story for marketers to hear about how he’s saying, “Here are the conversations I want to have with my prospects.” Versus, “I just want to capture your data and put it in the big list.” He’s looking for a higher value customer, and it works for him. So I think Swenk would be a really interesting person for you.

Doug Morneau: Well, excellent. Hey, well, thanks again. I really appreciate taking the time. I know we ran a little bit longer today, but you had lots of information to share. So listeners, there you go. I’m going to encourage you to go take a look at Todd’s websites for the Webinar Works as well as MoneyPath and just thanks for tuning in, I hope that you found some value here. If you’ve got some questions, don’t be shy to reach out, and leave a review or leave a comment on the blog, and we’ll have the notes transcribed, make sure that all of the contact information is there for you, and we look forward to serving you on our next episode.

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"Innovation isn't just thinking outside the box; it's about setting the box on fire and building something extraordinary from the ashes."

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